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Feb 1, 2023 · 30m · product-market-fit

Hongwei Liu, Founder of MappedIn | How to Find Product Market Fit · PMF Show

Hongwei Liu · 21m spoken Pablo Srugo · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

On The Product Market Fit Show, host Pablo interviews Hongwei Liu, founder and CEO of Mappedin, exploring how his company evolved from an unscalable custom mapping side project into a multi-vertical indoor mapping SaaS platform powering enterprise clients and emergency responders globally.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Pablo holds 23.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Pablo as informed peer 3.8 Guest teaching 2.8 Guest disagreement 0.8 Pablo pushing back 1.2
05100:0010:0020:0030:001:31–3:52 · Pablo as informed peer 2/10 Mappedin's Origins and First Commercial Mall Customer Pablo sets up the interview and prompts Hongwei to walk through the company origins. Hongwei shares the story of their early university side project and taking a gamble on their first shopping mall customer.3:52–8:53 · Pablo as informed peer 3/10 Early Traction and the Custom Consulting Trap Pablo asks about early sales strategy and contract sizes. Hongwei humorously corrects Pablo's high revenue assumption and explains the operational grind of serving disparate clients like malls, universities, and casinos.8:53–15:11 · Pablo as informed peer 5/10 False Validation and the Gray Zone of Product Market Fit Pablo articulates the hazard of the product-market fit gray zone where early sales mask unscalable consulting models. Hongwei validates this by breaking down the pivotal realization that building an internal map-editing CMS was the real scalable business.15:11–20:22 · Pablo as informed peer 4/10 Landing Global Mall Giants and Scaling Corporate Use Cases Pablo inquires about the transition from bespoke client apps to productized SaaS. Hongwei details how leading with their self-serve editor tool allowed them to beat established incumbents and close Simon Property Group.20:22–25:42 · Pablo as informed peer 5/10 Engineering Tools for Emergency Response and Founder Advice Hongwei elaborates on how intuitive tools expanded Mappedin into public safety and emergency response use cases. Pablo synthesizes Hongwei's advice into a concise principle on using obvious initial products as discovery engines for deeper market opportunities.1:31–3:52 · Guest teaching 1/10 Mappedin's Origins and First Commercial Mall Customer Pablo sets up the interview and prompts Hongwei to walk through the company origins. Hongwei shares the story of their early university side project and taking a gamble on their first shopping mall customer.3:52–8:53 · Guest teaching 2/10 Early Traction and the Custom Consulting Trap Pablo asks about early sales strategy and contract sizes. Hongwei humorously corrects Pablo's high revenue assumption and explains the operational grind of serving disparate clients like malls, universities, and casinos.8:53–15:11 · Guest teaching 4/10 False Validation and the Gray Zone of Product Market Fit Pablo articulates the hazard of the product-market fit gray zone where early sales mask unscalable consulting models. Hongwei validates this by breaking down the pivotal realization that building an internal map-editing CMS was the real scalable business.15:11–20:22 · Guest teaching 3/10 Landing Global Mall Giants and Scaling Corporate Use Cases Pablo inquires about the transition from bespoke client apps to productized SaaS. Hongwei details how leading with their self-serve editor tool allowed them to beat established incumbents and close Simon Property Group.20:22–25:42 · Guest teaching 4/10 Engineering Tools for Emergency Response and Founder Advice Hongwei elaborates on how intuitive tools expanded Mappedin into public safety and emergency response use cases. Pablo synthesizes Hongwei's advice into a concise principle on using obvious initial products as discovery engines for deeper market opportunities.1:31–3:52 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mappedin's Origins and First Commercial Mall Customer Pablo sets up the interview and prompts Hongwei to walk through the company origins. Hongwei shares the story of their early university side project and taking a gamble on their first shopping mall customer.3:52–8:53 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Early Traction and the Custom Consulting Trap Pablo asks about early sales strategy and contract sizes. Hongwei humorously corrects Pablo's high revenue assumption and explains the operational grind of serving disparate clients like malls, universities, and casinos.8:53–15:11 · Guest disagreement 1/10 False Validation and the Gray Zone of Product Market Fit Pablo articulates the hazard of the product-market fit gray zone where early sales mask unscalable consulting models. Hongwei validates this by breaking down the pivotal realization that building an internal map-editing CMS was the real scalable business.15:11–20:22 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Landing Global Mall Giants and Scaling Corporate Use Cases Pablo inquires about the transition from bespoke client apps to productized SaaS. Hongwei details how leading with their self-serve editor tool allowed them to beat established incumbents and close Simon Property Group.20:22–25:42 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Engineering Tools for Emergency Response and Founder Advice Hongwei elaborates on how intuitive tools expanded Mappedin into public safety and emergency response use cases. Pablo synthesizes Hongwei's advice into a concise principle on using obvious initial products as discovery engines for deeper market opportunities.1:31–3:52 · Pablo pushing back 1/10 Mappedin's Origins and First Commercial Mall Customer Pablo sets up the interview and prompts Hongwei to walk through the company origins. Hongwei shares the story of their early university side project and taking a gamble on their first shopping mall customer.3:52–8:53 · Pablo pushing back 1/10 Early Traction and the Custom Consulting Trap Pablo asks about early sales strategy and contract sizes. Hongwei humorously corrects Pablo's high revenue assumption and explains the operational grind of serving disparate clients like malls, universities, and casinos.8:53–15:11 · Pablo pushing back 2/10 False Validation and the Gray Zone of Product Market Fit Pablo articulates the hazard of the product-market fit gray zone where early sales mask unscalable consulting models. Hongwei validates this by breaking down the pivotal realization that building an internal map-editing CMS was the real scalable business.15:11–20:22 · Pablo pushing back 1/10 Landing Global Mall Giants and Scaling Corporate Use Cases Pablo inquires about the transition from bespoke client apps to productized SaaS. Hongwei details how leading with their self-serve editor tool allowed them to beat established incumbents and close Simon Property Group.20:22–25:42 · Pablo pushing back 1/10 Engineering Tools for Emergency Response and Founder Advice Hongwei elaborates on how intuitive tools expanded Mappedin into public safety and emergency response use cases. Pablo synthesizes Hongwei's advice into a concise principle on using obvious initial products as discovery engines for deeper market opportunities.

speaking balance: gold is Pablo, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Pablo 57.3% · guest 42.7%0:00 · Pablo 57.3% · guest 42.7%3:00 · Pablo 23.3% · guest 76.7%3:00 · Pablo 23.3% · guest 76.7%6:00 · Pablo 13.9% · guest 86.1%6:00 · Pablo 13.9% · guest 86.1%9:00 · Pablo 28.5% · guest 71.5%9:00 · Pablo 28.5% · guest 71.5%12:00 · Pablo 1.9% · guest 98.1%12:00 · Pablo 1.9% · guest 98.1%15:00 · Pablo 10.7% · guest 89.3%15:00 · Pablo 10.7% · guest 89.3%18:00 · Pablo 17.8% · guest 82.2%18:00 · Pablo 17.8% · guest 82.2%21:00 · Pablo 23.7% · guest 76.3%21:00 · Pablo 23.7% · guest 76.3%24:00 · Pablo 17% · guest 83%24:00 · Pablo 17% · guest 83%27:00 · Pablo 19.4% · guest 80.6%27:00 · Pablo 19.4% · guest 80.6%30:00 · Pablo 90.7% · guest 9.3%30:00 · Pablo 90.7% · guest 9.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 5:11 Playful challenge on early contract expectations

Hongwei playfully pokes fun at Pablo's assumption of landing six-figure enterprise contracts right out of school, contrasting it with their scrappy early survival.

 Hardest push from Pablo ▶ 8:53 Probing the deceptive gray zone of PMF

Pablo presses on the danger of premature self-congratulation when a startup has paying consulting customers without true software scalability.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:29 Educating on the eight hidden operational workflows of indoor maps

Hongwei reveals that building managers juggle multiple operational use cases like leasing, security, and maintenance rather than just consumer wayfinding.

 Pablo holds their own ▶ 25:29 Synthesizing early obvious products as discovery engines

Pablo crystallizes Hongwei's narrative into a sharp framework explaining how doing commodity work can act as customer discovery for scalable innovation.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicPablo as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementPablo pushing backWhy
Mappedin's Origins and First Commercial Mall Customer 2101 Pablo sets up the interview and prompts Hongwei to walk through the company origins. Hongwei shares the story of their early university side project and taking a gamble on their first shopping mall customer.
Early Traction and the Custom Consulting Trap 3211 Pablo asks about early sales strategy and contract sizes. Hongwei humorously corrects Pablo's high revenue assumption and explains the operational grind of serving disparate clients like malls, universities, and casinos.
False Validation and the Gray Zone of Product Market Fit 5412 Pablo articulates the hazard of the product-market fit gray zone where early sales mask unscalable consulting models. Hongwei validates this by breaking down the pivotal realization that building an internal map-editing CMS was the real scalable business.
Landing Global Mall Giants and Scaling Corporate Use Cases 4311 Pablo inquires about the transition from bespoke client apps to productized SaaS. Hongwei details how leading with their self-serve editor tool allowed them to beat established incumbents and close Simon Property Group.
Engineering Tools for Emergency Response and Founder Advice 5411 Hongwei elaborates on how intuitive tools expanded Mappedin into public safety and emergency response use cases. Pablo synthesizes Hongwei's advice into a concise principle on using obvious initial products as discovery engines for deeper market opportunities.

Statements from this episode (10)

Disclosure
Liu financed Mappedin's first mall deployment using his personal savings
“Back then it had to be all included. So we charged them a monthly license, but we didn't charge them for the hardware. I financed it with my, again, my five-figure life, low five-figure life savings. And it was basically a deal where we'd make that back over t…”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 3:21
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mappedin generates approximately five sales leads per day
“Today when I look at Mafton, we get like five leads a day and I just look at it and I feel happy because I remember how much work each lead used to take.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 8:43
Insight
TV pitch shows like Dragon's Den do not drive enterprise B2B sales
“What we didn't get from that was customers. Cause you know, if you're selling lawn chairs, dragon's end is awesome. People on their couch, buy lawn chairs off the TV. They're not buying indoor mapping software for their mall, right? Like that's not enterprise …”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 10:32
Insight
Buildings need unified map maintenance tools rather than custom consumer apps
“While every building might want a different app for some mapping use case, they're all going to want the same productivity tool for maintaining their own maps.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 14:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Most of the world's large shopping malls use Mappedin
“Today we have, you know, Definitely CF, but most of the malls big malls in the world are using us.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 17:23
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mappedin is used by approximately 10% of Fortune 500 headquarters
“Today we're working with, like, 10% of the Fortune 500 headquarters. Their office managers are using maps and tools to maintain.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 18:43
Assertion Supported
New Jersey allocated $6.5M to map state schools after the Uvalde shooting
“August 30th, twenty-twenty twenty-twenty-two, the governor of New Jersey puts out a press release saying, I'm allocating six and a half million dollars of Funding to map all the schools in the state of New Jersey because Uvalde happened and maps of schools are…”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 21:37
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mappedin is the largest indoor mapping startup in the world
“I, I'd say we're by far the biggest indoor mapping startup in the world in terms of customers, revenue, square footage, et cetera.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 26:12
Assertion Supported
ServiceNow partnered with Mappedin for return-to-work desk booking
“ServiceNow reached out to us and we became their go-to partner for return to work. So like powering desk booking and Table reservations.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 28:12
Assertion Supported
Mappedin won a US Homeland Security contract for firefighter indoor mapping
“We submitted this RFP for Homeland Security and we won. Canadian company won a US defense contract to build and to adapt our indoor mapping tools for that.”
Hongwei Liu Feb 1, 2023 ▶ 29:11
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