Aug 11, 2023 · 53m · more-or-less
#9: How to save ESPN. Barstool’s Bad (Good?) Example · More or Less Podcast
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
The More or Less podcast co-hosts analyze the collapse of legacy sports broadcasting, examining Penn Entertainment's Barstool buyback and ESPN BET partnership alongside survival strategies for ESPN, before debating the clinical breakthroughs, biohacking culture, and pricing disparities of GLP-1 drugs.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 99.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 5.7 Guest teaching 2.5 Guest disagreement 3.4 The hosts pushing back 3.9
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 26:30 Dismissal of branching narrative sports broadcasts
Dave and Sam bluntly dismiss Brit's proposal for interactive viewer choices during live sports, insisting that real-time betting already fulfills that function far more effectively.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 42:45 Refusal to endorse GLP-1 usage for healthy biohackersJessica adamantly challenges Brit and Dave's enthusiasm for Ozempic, pointing out that clinical trials in obese cohorts do not justify healthy individuals taking it off-label without long-term safety data.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 36:21 Explaining the NCAA NIL landscape and roster shiftsDave breaks down the mechanics of the NCAA's name and likeness changes and transfer portal to explain how Colorado rapidly built a program that ESPN chose to broadcast nationally.
The host holds their own ▶ 15:54 Citing precise subscriber and profit erosion at ESPNJessica counters vague assertions about live sports dominance with concrete operational data, citing ESPN's subscriber decline from 100 million to 72 million alongside shrinking revenue.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Remote Banter: Global Time Zones and Future News | 4 | 1 | 1 | 2 | The episode opens with lighthearted banter across time zones, poking fun at Sam's 40th birthday and tech app investments like Locket. The tone is entirely friendly, informal, and collaborative. | |
| Episode Roadmap: Legacy Media Decline and Longevity Preview | 7 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Jessica establishes the media landscape and details Barstool's deal with Penn Gaming alongside SoftBank's litigation against IRL. When Sam champions the 'crazy man' windfall thesis, Jessica pushes back, noting the dangerous line founders walk and arguing subscription businesses are the true viable models. | |
| ESPN BET, Cable Unbundling, and Declining Viewership | 7 | 2 | 2 | 4 | Brit and Jessica break down the 10-year Penn-ESPN Bet deal while discussing cable unbundling and re-bundling. Jessica shares specific financial metrics including ESPN's drop from 100 million to 72 million subscribers despite generating $3 billion in operating profit. | |
| Niche Sports Distribution and the Direct-to-Consumer Dilemma | 6 | 4 | 5 | 4 | Sam challenges the necessity of traditional distributors like ESPN, arguing leagues can monetize directly through D2C apps and social platforms. Jessica counters using her experience with the World Surf League app to emphasize ESPN's broader reach, prompting Sam to joke about Taylor Swift distributing sports. | |
| Revitalizing Sports Through Storytelling and Format Innovations | 6 | 2 | 2 | 3 | Dave draws from his experience on the US Ski Team board to suggest narrative and camera format changes, such as drone first-person cameras. Sam supports this by explaining how the pitch clock revived baseball and how the NBA's smaller roster size enables stronger character-driven narratives. | |
| Audience Interactivity, Gamification, and Animal Betting Contests | 4 | 3 | 5 | 4 | Brit suggests interactive branching narratives for live broadcasts, but Dave and Sam dismiss this premise, pointing out that gambling is already the natural interactive mechanism. Sam punctuates the point with his recurring reference to the spectacle of 'Man vs. Beast'. | |
| League Co-Ownership and Debate Over Athlete Equity | 6 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Brit proposes granting athletes equity stakes in leagues, which Sam immediately rejects on economic grounds. Jessica agrees with Sam, comparing league equity pitches to Substack crowd-equity raises that mislead creators into taking unrewarding equity over hard cash. | |
| Saving ESPN: Emerging Sports Leagues and Documentaries | 5 | 2 | 2 | 3 | Dave suggests ESPN revitalize itself through R&D into emerging sports like pickleball and international soccer leagues. The group highlights the enduring strength of ESPN's 30 for 30 documentary format even as linear cable viewership declines. | |
| Sports Tech Booms, Peak Valuations, and NCAA NIL | 6 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Sam argues esports have underperformed and warns that top-tier sports franchises are priced to perfection. Dave explains how NCAA NIL rules and the transfer portal enabled Colorado to recruit high-profile players under Deion Sanders, driving network broadcast deals. | |
| Experiential 'ESPN Land', Bob Iger's Advisors, and Sam's Exit | 5 | 1 | 4 | 3 | Brit pitches experiential 'ESPN Land' entertainment concepts within Disney theme parks, drawing comparisons to Topgolf. Jessica details Bob Iger bringing back former executives Kevin Mayer and Tom Staggs as consultants before Sam departs early for sailing. | |
| Ozempic Cardiovascular Breakthrough and the Biohacking Debate | 6 | 4 | 6 | 7 | Brit and Dave present a 17,000-person five-year study demonstrating a 20% reduction in cardiovascular events from Ozempic. Jessica pushes back firmly against healthy Silicon Valley biohackers taking GLP-1s off-label, demanding multi-generational safety data and advocating for zone 2 exercise instead. | |
| Mental Health Impacts, Pricing Markups, and GLP-1 Verdicts | 6 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Dave highlights the secondary mental health impacts and the extreme US price markup ($1200/month vs $100 in Mexico). Brit analogizes unvetted consumer health fads to early tobacco marketing, while Jessica offers a parting warning against jumping on medical bandwagons before teasing Sam's absence. |
Statements from this episode (24)
Brit Morin: Penn gave Barstool back to Portnoy for 50% upside
“But I'm just, I think it's interesting that now, basically, Penn Entertainment is saying, like, hey, Dave, you can have Barstool Sports back for free as long as you give us 50% of whatever upside, if and when you ever sell it.”
Jessica Lessin: SoftBank is suing the founder of IRL
“SoftBank is now suing the founder of IRL after the information reported its user numbers were suspect and the SEC investigated and so on.”
Sam Lessin: SoftBank destroys good companies by overfunding them
“I have a long list of grievances against SoftBank destroying otherwise good companies by overfunding them.”
Brit Morin: ESPN Bet deal is $1.5B over 10 years plus $500M
“It's a 1.5 billion dollar deal over 10 years with another potential five hundred million, so two billion”
Jessica Lessin: ESPN subscribers fell from 100 million peak to 72 million
“Subscribers are down. The peak was around a hundred million. This is for ESPN. They're at 72 now. Still three billion in profit fourteen billion in revenue, but revenue is shrinking by like six percent.”
Jessica Lessin: Yahoo's live football broadcast gamble was a disaster
“Yahoo did that.
Do you guys remember?
Yeah, I remember that.
Like, big, like, football gamble?
It was a disaster.
I mean, I know they're still keeping a toe, but it's a disaster.”
Sam Lessin: DTC access structurally undermines third-party sports distribution
“So it's just, I think it's really hard to be a distributor, right? In an era when everyone can get their default as they can go direct.”
Dave Morin: Pocket cams caused World Series of Poker to explode
“World Series of Poker was not that popular until they discovered this format where they started showing the hand on the screen before you know, in the middle of the game. And so the audience could be in on the tension going on in the actual room. And that blew…”
Sam Lessin: NBA's 450-player roster enables superior personal storytelling
“The NBA only has 450 pro players, right? Which seems like a good number, right? So I think when you think about, like, if you're following the stories of humans”
Dave Morin: Betting is easiest interactivity because it holds the tension
“Well, I think that's why betting. It's just betting's the easiest way, right? Because betting's where all the tension is.”
Jessica Lessin: Sports leagues rejected Disney's offer to buy ESPN equity
“The other thing we know he's doing is they're trying to find, like, co-owners and going to the leagues. And the leagues were apparently like, no, we're good. We got our own thing.”
Sam Lessin: LIV Golf's massive spending brilliantly extorted the PGA Tour
“It wasn't the Saudis who just were like, fuck this, we have infinity money, so we'll pay all these people like literally a hundred million dollars to show up and play a round of golf, and that was incredibly successful because they basically, I think they just…”
Jessica Lessin: Writers investing in Substack's equity crowdfunding won't make money
“And I do have to say, I think the, like, pattern of people being duped To think, like, equity is gonna be worth something in the vast majority of cases is very sad, so. I got very mad when, like, Substack tried to convince its writers to invest in Substack, be…”
Sam Lessin: Esports has dramatically underperformed initial market expectations
“I think esports has underperformed dramatically compared to what people were expecting.”
Jessica Lessin: NFL and NBA will continue driving sports media economics
“You could buy all the pickleball and surfing that you want, but your viewership and economics are going to be driven by the NFL, the NBA.”
Sam Lessin: NBA franchises and blue-chip sports teams are priced to perfection
“I actually was looking at an NBA deal recently. We're not buying an NBA team or a piece of one, but I was looking at someone selling a piece of one. I was looking at the economics and like, they're so expensive, right? When you look at like what you pay per do…”
Jessica Lessin: ESPN will survive but become significantly less profitable
“Things are getting more fragmented, and it's gonna be, I think ESPN exists, but it's just not nearly as profitable.”
Sam Lessin: ESPN's reinvention strategies will fail and the network is doomed
“This is not going to work for ESPN. They're fucked.”
Jessica Lessin: Bob Iger hired ousted executives Mayer and Staggs as consultants
“Bob has actually hired two people he pushed out of the company to As consultants to help him figure out this problem. Kevin Mayer and Tom Stacks.”
Brit Morin: Clinical trial shows semaglutide reduces cardiovascular risk by 20%
“There was a new paper that came out that actually proved that there is a reduction of heart attack and stroke risk by 20% for those that have used Ozempic”
Jessica Lessin: Taking GLP-1 weight-loss drugs without long-term studies is highly risky
“Even if we have these studies, we have no long-term benefits or studies on this stuff. And, like, it just seems highly risky to me, I gotta say. Highly risky.”