Mar 15, 2024 · 57m · more-or-less
#38: Hartz and Minds and TikTok w/ Special Guest Julia Hartz · More or Less Podcast
Julia Hartz · 16m spoken Jessica Lessin · 13m spoken Sam Lessin · 11m spoken Dave Morin · 8m spoken Brit Morin · 26s spoken
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Guest co-host Julia Hartz of Eventbrite joins Sam Lessin, Jessica Lessin, and Dave Morin on More or Less to dissect the U.S. House's bipartisan TikTok ban bill, analyze the adolescent mental health crisis driven by phone-based childhoods, and explore why post-pandemic culture is fiercely returning to real-world gatherings.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 66.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 3.6 Guest disagreement 1.3 The hosts pushing back 1.5
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:50 Julia rejects Dave's parental panic framing
Julia directly contradicts Dave's framing that parental panic and foreign manipulation justify the ban, arguing that Americans created the phone addiction themselves and youth see the rhetoric as hysteria.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 12:28 Jessica rejects divestiture viabilityWhen Julia asks if divestiture is truly off the table, Jessica immediately dismisses the idea by citing Chinese export control laws and reporting on ByteDance's legal barriers.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 43:25 Julia explains event discovery mechanics vs social feedsJulia methodically educates the hosts on why tech giants like Facebook cannot simply capture events, highlighting the coordinated social calendar commitment required compared to standard impulse e-commerce.
The host holds their own ▶ 14:21 Jessica delivers insider reporting on Beijing tech policyJessica draws on her direct reporting on the Chinese tech ecosystem to explain that Beijing actively cracked down on ByteDance because consumer apps siphon talent away from semiconductor priorities.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Welcoming Julia Hartz and Triggering Video Reactions | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Introductory banter welcoming Julia Hartz in place of Brit Morin. The hosts and guest joke about Zoom gestures and Brit's glasses in a friendly, lighthearted atmosphere. | |
| US House Passes Bipartisan TikTok Ban Bill | 6 | 1 | 0 | 1 | Hosts Sam and Jessica break down the legislative progress of the House TikTok ban bill and the likelihood of Senate procedural hurdles. Julia listens while the co-hosts demonstrate clear domain knowledge. | |
| PUFICA Acronym and Capitol Hill Merchandise Banter | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Julia shares the bill's acronym PUFICA and delivers an AI-generated joke, which spurs joking merchandise concepts among the hosts. | |
| Political Stakes, AOC's Vote, and Electoral Calculus | 6 | 0 | 0 | 1 | The hosts debate AOC's vote against the ban, political calculus, and how ByteDance investors are quietly positioning themselves before the election. | |
| Divestiture Obstacles, Trump's Reversal, and Beijing's Priorities | 7 | 1 | 1 | 2 | Julia asks whether divestiture is actually off the table, prompting Jessica to report Chinese algorithmic export laws and Beijing's strategic shift toward hardware over consumer apps. | |
| Parental Anxiety, Screen Time, and Gen Z Perspectives | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | Dave argues that the ban is driven by parental anxiety over kids' mental health, but Julia pushes back directly, arguing from her daughter's perspective that Gen Z sees the threat as exaggerated propaganda and would simply move to Instagram. | |
| Generational Inflections, Gamified Childhoods, and Workplace Shock | 4 | 6 | 2 | 1 | Julia educates the hosts on how smartphones, COVID, and gamified socialization create an unlock-and-level-up mindset that clashes with traditional corporate workplaces. | |
| The Atlantic's Childhood Data and the Search for Meaning | 6 | 1 | 0 | 3 | Dave cites an Atlantic article tracking youth mental decline and loss of meaning, leading to a philosophical debate with Sam on whether niche online subcultures offer meaning or endless wandering. | |
| Daughter's Screen Time Request and Reparenting Ourselves | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Julia shares an anecdote about her daughter voluntarily setting screen limits and emphasizes that parents must reparent themselves rather than simply imposing authoritarian bans. | |
| Empowering Community Organizers and Monetizing Niche Gatherings | 4 | 7 | 2 | 1 | Julia details Eventbrite's scale and corrects the perception that it is just for casual meetups, explaining that niche gatherings run by entrepreneurial creators are commercial businesses. | |
| Silent Book Clubs and Activity-Based Modern Dating | 3 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Julia explains the rise of offline niche activities like silent book clubs and activity-based dates as young people reject dating apps and online fatigue. | |
| Hybrid Dating Apps and Nostalgic Relationship Parties | 5 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Jessica asks why big social platforms failed at live events; Julia breaks down the structural differences between ephemeral ticketing and standard feed e-commerce, citing hyper-curated door policies like vibe checks. | |
| The Impact of VR, AR, and Virtual Events Post-Pandemic | 5 | 7 | 2 | 2 | Julia candidly recounts Eventbrite's pandemic collapse and why virtual events plunged back down from 90% to under 10%, expressing skepticism about headset adoption replacing physical presence. | |
| Announcing The Information's Creator Economy Summit | 3 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Jessica plugs The Information's upcoming Creator Economy Summit, and Julia leads a fun, Claude-generated partner trivia game before wrapping up the episode. |
Statements from this episode (29)
Sam Lessin says TikTok is an obvious US national security threat
“This is, like, such an obvious national security threat.”
Sam Lessin predicts a TikTok ban will trigger global social media scrutiny
“This is probably going to have some pretty wild and potentially bad knock-on effects globally. Just slight ones, because I think a lot of countries are like, wait a minute. All the social media is American. How do we feel about, if America doesn't like TikTok …”
Jessica Lessin says any TikTok ban legislation will inevitably face court challenges
“And then the court, you know, inevitable court challenge of that, because you have to believe that will happen.”
Jessica Lessin says the TikTok divestment bill was rushed due to its acronym
“That tells me this thing was rushed, rushed, rushed through, because if you can't even get, you know, a pro-American acronym on top of your bill, that's like the definition of the 11th hour.”
Dave Morin predicts a TikTok ban will confuse Americans and cause havoc
“If this happens, I think most people in the country are going to have no idea why it happened. And it will kind of cause a lot of havoc, which is unclear politically what effect that will have, at least inside the United States.”
Jessica Lessin notes ByteDance and TikTok investors are staying silent on lobbying
“One of the things that's interesting now is actually a lot of the investors in ByteDance and TikTok are actually staying pretty silent on the lobbying front, which is a huge shift from a year or two years ago.”
Jessica Lessin predicts the US Senate will take up and pass the TikTok bill
“I think the Senate's gonna pick it up. I think it's happening.”
Jessica Lessin says China will block a TikTok sale under algorithm export rules
“They won't let them. It will be in violation of their rules against exporting algorithms.”
Jessica Lessin says Beijing views ByteDance as a distraction from strategic priorities
“I think largely the Chinese government, what is missed is, like, ByteDance isn't some shining national champion they're trying to win, they hope, win at all costs. They actually see it as sucking time and talent away from more urgent national priorities, and t…”
Dave Morin says China limits youth screen time and mandates STEM algorithms
“They've actually banned TikTok usage longer than a certain number of minutes per day. They've also Banned the algorithm. They've like changed the algorithms that only pumps, you know, science and engineering and STEM related content to their kids. And yet they…”
Julia Hartz predicts Gen Z will simply switch to Instagram if TikTok is banned
“It's all, they'll just go to Instagram. They'll just spend more time on Instagram. That's not, it's not, like, it's really not gonna change their lives.”
Sam Lessin says learning foreign languages is completely irrelevant because of LLMs
“So they're really not getting the LLM message. It's like the one skill that's now completely irrelevant.”
Julia Hartz says gamified childhoods leave young workers expecting instant job promotions
“But it's that leveling up that then lands them into the next level, the next unlock, then lands them into the job market, and they don't know what, they're like, where's my unlock? Where's my promo?”
Jessica Lessin says Bloomberg newsroom employees must badge in for bathroom breaks
“Bloomberg does that. You have to badge in and out of the bathroom. Don't work at Bloomberg. Work at the information. It's true. The newsroom. You have to badge in and out of your desk, including, like, bathroom breaks, so.”
Sam Lessin says digital communities drive people to niches in search of meaning
“There's nothing you are good at all of a sudden because the communities went from being locally bound and physically bound to infinite and digital. And in that world, what you're seeing, I think so much is explained by this because I think what you see is one,…”
Julia Hartz says parents must reparent their own smartphone habits before helping kids
“The second thing is, in order for us to help our kids, we have to reparent ourselves on smartphones.”
Dave Morin notes the 2024 Super Bowl was the most-watched event since the moon landing
“The Super Bowl is the most watched live event since the moon landing.”
Julia Hartz says niche is the new mass in post-pandemic live events
“Niche is the new mass. So people are absolutely wanting to be in more highly curated experiences that map to those groups that they found on Reddit.”
Julia Hartz says Reddit's IPO valuation is justified by real-life community demand
“I'm not surprised that Reddit's going out at the valuation they're going out at, because I see it play out in real life in a way that's absolutely skyrocketing.”
Julia Hartz says hosting in-person gatherings is the best way to influence
“It's not the best way to make money, but it's the best way to influence is getting people together in real life.”
Julia Hartz says Meetup lacked a commercial angle to become the Etsy of gathering
“Had they stuck with it, they probably could have become more of the Etsy of gathering, but I think what they lacked was a commercial angle.”
Julia Hartz notes over 75% of Gen Z report suffering from loneliness
“We also know that Gen Z is saying over 75% of them are saying they're suffering from loneliness.”
Julia Hartz says nobody wants to meet their future partner on dating apps
“But no one wants to meet on an app anymore. No one wants to meet their future partner on an app. They want to go be not so much at a bar hanging out meeting, or I met Kevin at a wedding. They want to be doing something they love and finding love at the same ti…”
Julia Hartz says speed dating organizers are entirely overhauling their event formats
“So we're seeing these creators who have been in the past matchmakers or speed dating organizers. They're actually changing their format completely.”
Julia Hartz admits it is difficult to make substantial profit in event ticketing
“I think it's hard to make a lot of money in ticketing.”
Julia Hartz says live event discovery is inherently harder than traditional e-commerce
“The discovery of events is hard because it's not askew. It's an ephemeral thing that happens. You don't go to it alone. So I buy shoes on Instagram post-temp, but I'm not going to go to an event alone, you know, that often post-temp. You have to coordinate wit…”
Sam Lessin predicts event door vibe checks will become a politicized disaster
“I can't wait for this to become, like, a highly politicized issue. It's like, who are you not letting in for vibe check reasons? Like, this is going to be a disaster at some point.”