Mar 8, 2024 · 54m · more-or-less
#37: TikTok's Latest Crisis, Elon's Emails, AI Monopolies · More or Less Podcast
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of More or Less, co-hosts Jessica Lessin, Sam Lessin, Dave Morin, and Brit Morin debate the legislative push to ban or divest TikTok, dissect Elon Musk's lawsuit against OpenAI, and evaluate the monopoly risks threatening the artificial intelligence sector. Blending venture capital expertise with sharp cultural commentary, the panel delivers an incisive analysis of platform regulation, electric vehicle adoption, and entertainment economics.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 99.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 2.6 Guest disagreement 3.0 The hosts pushing back 3.0
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 38:00 Clash over EV charging vs gas car convenience
Brit and Dave directly challenge Sam's logic on EV range anxiety, highlighting that his charging anxiety stems from personal habit rather than actual vehicle limitations.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 11:46 Dave pushes back on OS parental controls premiseDave rejects Sam's proposal by arguing that delegating app restriction to parents fails to address the underlying state-level national security threat.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 18:49 Brit checks Apple App Store Chinese revenue shareBrit pulls data from Gemini to correct the assumption that Apple can casually default off Chinese software, revealing that 25% to 33% of App Store revenue comes from Chinese developers.
The host holds their own ▶ 7:56 Jessica catches Dave citing external reporting on CapCutJessica quickly calls out Dave for claiming he read about CapCut's TikTok feed integration in Bloomberg or CNBC when The Information had broken the exclusive scoop.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 'More or Less' Animated Title Sequence and Theme Song | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 | The hosts engage in casual introductory banter about ninja stars, Silicon Valley branding, and show logistics. There is light, playful disagreement among co-hosts regarding what listeners care about, but no serious substance or schooling. | |
| TikTok's Latest Crisis and ByteDance's Expanding App Ecosystem | 6 | 2 | 2 | 3 | Jessica introduces the congressional TikTok divestment bill and teases Dave for citing CNBC/Bloomberg instead of The Information's scoop on CapCut. Dave explains CapCut's algorithmic feed integration, demonstrating technical product familiarity. | |
| Sam Lessin's Proposal: App Store Controls for Parents | 5 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Sam proposes mandating parent-level OS controls through Apple and Google rather than trying to ban TikTok directly. Brit and Dave challenge the premise, questioning whether categorical bans on Chinese apps are realistic or if they solve national security risks. | |
| Apple's Geopolitical Dilemma and Legislative Sophistication in Washington | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Brit pushes back against Sam by citing Gemini data that a quarter to a third of App Store revenue stems from Chinese developers. Jessica shares recent ByteDance financial data from The Information showing 43% quarterly revenue growth. | |
| Algorithmic Warfare, Project Texas, and Final TikTok Verdicts | 6 | 2 | 2 | 2 | Dave lays out the psychological and propaganda risks of non-US algorithms shaping youth media consumption, comparing modern feeds to 90s media censorship debates. Sam and Jessica dismiss data-theft arguments like Project Texas as pure PR misdirection. | |
| Elon Musk's Lawsuit Against OpenAI and Leaked Emails | 6 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Jessica details OpenAI's released email exchanges showing Elon Musk arguing for for-profit status and Tesla integration. Dave notes the emails show Musk warning about the billions needed to compete, while Sam critiques OpenAI's original non-profit data access. | |
| The Hosts on Elon Musk: Hero, Heel, and Diminishing Relevance | 4 | 2 | 3 | 3 | Brit expresses fatigue with Elon Musk's public persona, contrasting his 2016 reputation with current behavior. Jessica queries whether Musk actually matters for media traffic anymore, and Sam points out Tesla's reduced market share dominance in EVs. | |
| Debating Electric Vehicle Adoption, Range Anxiety, and Tech Paranoia | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | The panel debates EV adoption barriers, clashing over range anxiety versus charging infrastructure. Brit and Dave press Sam on his refusal to charge devices until empty, contrasting their Model Y experience with his preference for gas vehicles. | |
| Analyzing AI Monopoly Risks and the Tim O'Reilly Op-Ed | 7 | 3 | 3 | 2 | Jessica introduces Tim O'Reilly's op-ed comparing AI model funding to Uber's ride-hailing monopoly playbook. Brit, Sam, and Dave dissect model commoditization versus downstream app value, with Dave bringing up on-device decentralized models. | |
| Oscars Trivia and the Economics of Live Stand-Up Comedy | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | Brit tests the group on Oscar trivia regarding highest-earning actors, revealing Adam Sandler. Sam argues that stand-up comedians like Brett Goldstein make higher profit margins than stadium acts due to zero production overhead. |
Statements from this episode (18)
Sam Lessin: Renewed focus on silicon is marketing fluff for VC fees
“That's just marketing fluff so VCs can dump billions of dollars into things and take fees.”
Sam Lessin: The AI revolution is fake outside of narrow applications
“I don't think the AI, I think the AI revolution is fake. We all know this.”
Sam Lessin: TikTok operating in the US is an insane national security threat
“Day 623 of the U.S. Letting a huge national security threat sit inside our borders, which is insane, right? Like, it's like ridiculous that TikTok is allowed to be in the U.S. Given its current control structure. And kind of the geopolitical situation.”
Sam Lessin: US politicians will not risk banning TikTok before 2024 election
“There's just no chance that in that environment they're gonna, like, risk any youth vote, even if they're terrible, woke people, for the sake of banning TikTok right now. And I think that sucks, because I think it is a huge national security risk, But I think …”
Dave Morin: ByteDance moved the TikTok feed into CapCut
“And I noticed a few weeks ago that they've also now moved the TikTok feed into CapCut.”
Sam Lessin: Regulating individual apps like TikTok creates an unwinnable whack-a-mole problem
“The regulatory pressure, you could either put the regulatory pressure on TikTok, right, which is what people are trying to direct, and then you have this whack-a-mole problem because companies are faster than regulators, so you regulate TikTok, but by the time…”
Sam Lessin: Apple could easily wipe out TikTok's US business using defaults
“Apple could cut TikTok's business if that's our concern. In the US down to nothing, very easily, just with defaults.”
Sam Lessin: An outright US ban on TikTok will never get done
“I think saying ban TikTok, that's a thing that like candidly might be marginally better, but you'll never get done.”
Lessin: ByteDance Q3 2023 Revenue Rose 43% to $31 Billion
“So, in the third quarter of last year, revenue grew 43% to thirty-one billion dollars.”
Morin: China has laid groundwork via TikTok to sway US youth on Taiwan
“And so Sam's analogy earlier that like if China decides to invade Taiwan and they want the American youth on their side, they've already laid the groundwork. Like we've seen it time and time again.”
Lessin: Algorithmic distribution control is a superweapon for shifting public opinion
“What you do is you, like, look, you just subtly, you think about bot farms and control, it's like, you're like, ah, I'm gonna let these people that are, like, pro this issue, I'm not gonna, like, limit them quite as much, or these other people, you can be so s…”
Sam Lessin: OpenAI Pulled a Skeezy Bait and Switch to Access Data
“The problem with this is that open AI convinced everyone because they were a quote unquote nonprofit to let them have a bunch of data that they could work with that they otherwise would never have had access to. And like, that is super skeezy. Right. And like …”
Dave Morin: Tesla Model Y is one of the greatest products ever created
“And like, I just, like the Model Y is one of the greatest products ever created. Like, it's unbelievable.”
Brit Morin: Early-Stage VC Funds Are Boxed Out of AI Models
“Early stage funds can't invest in this stuff. We're already boxed out. We can invest on the streams that come off of it.”
Sam Lessin: AI Base Models Will Either Be Worthless or Have Two to Three Winners
“There's no stable configuration for the base models where there's like a hundred of them. There's either going to be Zero that make any money. So they all are worthless, right? Cause it like, cause it is everywhere. And like, for what it's worth, that's been m…”
Sam Lessin: Stand-up comedy crushes stadium concert tours on margins
“It's like comedy is so cheap to make that it's so high margin, right? Like, that's kind of the beauty of comedy, right? Is like, you think about like staging like a Taylor Swift show versus some dude with a microphone, right? It's like, oh, the microphone guy …”