Jul 18, 2025 · 59m · more-or-less
#108 Meta vs. OpenAI: Who Wins the Next Attention War? · More or Less Podcast
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In this episode of More or Less, co-hosts Dave Morin, Britt Morin, Sam Lessin, and Jessica Lessin analyze the high-stakes platform rivalry between Meta and OpenAI, examining consumer AI monetization, modern media production, and the rise of vibe coding as digital entertainment.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 88.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 4.9 Guest teaching 1.8 Guest disagreement 1.1 The hosts pushing back 2.3
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 43:18 Britt counters Sam on Instagram product recommendations
Britt directly counters Sam's skepticism about conversational AI commerce by arguing that Instagram itself is already driven by product recommendations and that push and pull discovery are colliding.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 30:45 Dave pushes back on Sam's dismissal of chat attentionDave firmly rejects Sam's assumption that AI cannot cannibalize social media attention, insisting that daily engagement data shows ChatGPT directly rivaling Instagram's time spent.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 54:13 Britt educates the hosts on Velvet SundownBritt informs the hosts about an entirely synthetic AI rock band reaching number one on Spotify with their debut album, illustrating the reality of AI-generated pop culture.
The host holds their own ▶ 24:35 Sam demonstrates specialized city council AI data utilitySam counters general skepticism about AI local news by detailing portfolio company Hamlet, showing exact high-margin commercial use cases for scraped municipal public meeting transcripts.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| More or Less Podcast Official Animated Title Sequence | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Introductory banter celebrating Dave and Britt's wedding anniversary and reminiscing about hang gliding in Jackson Hole. The atmosphere is completely collegial and conversational. | |
| Jessica's Live Zuckerberg Interview and TITV Technical Mishaps | 4 | 1 | 1 | 0 | Jessica describes technical mishaps during her live launch interview with Mark Zuckerberg. Britt mostly provides supportive commentary and light jokes about Zuckerberg potentially preferring prerecorded footage. | |
| Launching TITV and Navigating the Modern Attention Economy | 5 | 1 | 1 | 2 | The hosts discuss TITV's format, audience building on X, and possible programming extensions like tech game shows or comedy hours. Britt chimes in playfully offering to participate and propose office hours. | |
| Personal Superintelligence, Consumer AI, and the Letter Meme | 6 | 1 | 0 | 2 | Jessica and Dave break down Zuckerberg's concept of personal superintelligence and how Meta's massive ad engine enables free consumer AI. Britt remains quiet as the hosts discuss personalized use cases and Sam's newsletter curation tool. | |
| Debating AI Agents and Data in Local News Reporting | 7 | 0 | 0 | 4 | Dave, Sam, and Jessica debate whether AI can revive local journalism or if audience demand is fundamentally lacking. Guest Britt does not participate in this deep-dive host debate. | |
| Meta vs. OpenAI: Ad Models, Attention, and Productivity | 7 | 0 | 0 | 5 | Dave and Sam vigorously debate whether ChatGPT is actively eroding Instagram's time spent and whether Meta's distribution will inevitably win. The discussion remains strictly between the hosts. | |
| Consumer AI: Voice Interaction, AI Commerce, and Discovery | 5 | 6 | 4 | 4 | Britt takes center stage, highlighting her son's voice-only ChatGPT interactions and arguing that AI commerce and affiliate commissions will define AI monetization rather than traditional display ads, gently challenging Sam's narrow definition of ad demand. | |
| Vibe Coding: Claude Code and Making the Internet Fun | 6 | 3 | 2 | 3 | The group discusses vibe coding, Claude Code, and personal software creation. Britt adds that consumer design and fashion prompting are expanding alongside developer vibe coding. | |
| Pop Culture Roundup: Recommendations and AI Music | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Britt informs the hosts about the AI rock band Velvet Sundown topping Spotify charts and shares TV recommendations. The hosts chime in on cultural trends and AI music. | |
| Wimbledon Recap: Jannik Sinner's Grand Slam Victory | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Short closing segment recapping Jannik Sinner's victory at Wimbledon followed by episode sign-offs. Entirely harmonious wrap-up. |
Statements from this episode (19)
Jessica Lessin: Zuckerberg livestream failed with control room audio in their ears
“We put it, yeah, I mean, we fixed with the viewers couldn't hear us, but our control room, we could hear the control room. So while I was interviewing Mark, the control room, which was melting down, was in both of our ears. So actually we both did that intervi…”
Dave Morin: ChatGPT's daily time spent is nearing Instagram's
“I saw a chart last week that ChatGPT is now nearing Instagram's daily time spent.”
Dave Morin: Incumbents, not startups, will win personal consumer AI
“It's not going to be the startups and the up and comers that provide the more personal cases to people. It's going to be the incumbents and the incumbents with enormous business models that can afford to make this stuff really low costs for the consumer.”
Sam Lessin: AI cannot replace reporters due to lack of ground truth
“You need to pay reporters and sources of truth and like you can't possibly get that. From AI, because AI's biggest problem is there's no idea what's actually going on in the real world.”
Jessica Lessin: AI transcripts are not a viable local news alternative
“I'm skeptical that it's going to turn into some kind of viable alternative for the holes in local news.”
Sam Lessin: Slow Ventures led investment in Sunil Rajaraman's Hamlet
“There's a version of this, I think, that we actually invested in, we're lead investors, and I'm really excited about it, that is working, right, and there's actually a blog associated with it, you know, which is called, which, oh, it's, you know, you must know…”
Sam Lessin: AI civic data will succeed in B2B, not consumer news
“People love the abstract, yada, yada, yada, being like, well, we get all of the small town news data, and then people will read the small town. It's like, no, no, no. There's going to be much more specific uses for it, right? With like verticals and some of it…”
Dave Morin: OpenAI and Anthropic must eventually adopt advertising business models
“ChatGPT, you know, ChatGPT, by the way, like, and Anthropic, like, they're making a lot of money, but they're not making enough money to fund the capital that they're raising. And so they have to turn to advertising sooner or later.”
Jessica Lessin: Anthropic reports 60% direct-sales gross margins heading toward 70%
“Anthropic recently said its gross profit margin from selling AI models and clawed directly to customers was 60% and moving towards 70, but this doesn't account for a lot of other shit.”
Jessica Lessin: OpenAI CFO stated advertising will become part of business model
“Their CFO is out there saying advertising is going to be a part of our business model publicly.”
Sam Lessin: Universal AI productivity gains create zero profit without unique edge
“You can only make money on productivity if you can do it uniquely. If everyone does the same productivity, the temperature rises, no difference, no money to be made. It's just like, that's how capitalism works.”
Dave Morin: Subscribed to Grok Pro, found it underwhelming, and unsubscribed
“I subscribed to Grok, you know, pro this week. Tried it. Doesn't work that much better. Unsubscribed.”
Britt Morin: AI monetization is heading toward commerce and affiliate models
“I truly think commerce and affiliate are really where this is all headed and open AI announced this week that it's like starting to create a new payment checkout system into the chat bot. And that basically merchants that fulfill the orders are going to have t…”
Sam Lessin: Advertising profits come from demand creation, not search fulfillment
“The money is made on the like, oh shit, you want some like, you convincing someone they want something. Right? Putting something they didn't know they want in front of them, right? And so I think this is, like, the big thing is, like, I'm not saying these thin…”
Dave Morin: Meta lacks a consumer AI product to compete with ChatGPT
“I think that's the real question here is that can they build a product that can compete? Cause right now they don't have one. And so they have to figure out how to use yesterday's ad dollars to fund the creation of a new product.”
Dave Morin: Switched from Cursor to Claude Code for software development
“I've gone like deep Claude code and not doing cursor anymore.”
Sam Lessin: No one will make money from vibe coding apps
“I don't think anyone's gonna make any money on it, but it's a great experience.”
Britt Morin: AI band Velvet Sundown topped charts with its debut album
“Well, Velvet Sundown revealed last week, shot to the top of the charts for its debut album Floating on Echoes, and its number one song, Dust on the Wind. And it's an AI band, you guys, and it literally was at the top of the charts for days.”
Dave Morin: AI-generated music is simply another form of electronic music
“And my whole thing is like, what makes this any different than any kind of electronic music? It's just a different type of electronic music. Just because it sounds like classic rock, you know, doesn't mean it's still electronic music.”