Apr 5, 2024 · 52m · more-or-less
#41: Is AI Killing Media? · More or Less Podcast
Jessica Lessin · 18m spoken Sam Lessin · 17m spoken Brit Morin · 6m spoken Dave Morin · 4m spoken Suno AI · 5s spoken
0:00 / 0:00
▶ Watch on YouTube →
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the More or Less podcast, co-hosts Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, Dave Morin, and Sam Lessin explore how artificial intelligence and evolving platform distribution are disrupting media, entertainment, and the creator economy. They debate everything from Suno AI and smart TV FAST channels to influencer infrastructure and the venture defensibility of foundational AI software.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 99.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 6.3 Guest teaching 3.4 Guest disagreement 4.2 The hosts pushing back 4.0
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 28:55 Sam slams FAST channels as toolbar scams
Sam aggressively derides the entire FAST TV channel category as identical to predatory browser toolbars preying on confused elderly users.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 35:45 Jessica defends lean-back viewing against algorithmic purityJessica pushes back against Sam's dismissive remarks, arguing personalized niche channels directly satisfy massive user demand for low-friction viewing.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 43:15 Sam breaks down developer API routing economicsSam educates the hosts on how developer proxy architecture will bypass OpenAI's expensive foundation models in favor of cheap fine-tuned open-source models.
The host holds their own ▶ 41:25 Jessica details publisher panic over Google SEO trafficJessica provides definitive industry context showing how media publications engineered their businesses around Google search queries and are now panicked into bad AI licensing deals.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| California Travel Banter and High-Speed Rail Debate | 6 | 3 | 4 | 4 | Jessica and Sam recount their trip to LA and discuss creator economy venture theses. Sam playfully banters about LA vs SF and questions AI homogenization while comparing modern venture spending to 1800s rail. | |
| The AI Music Revolution and Suno AI Experiment | 5 | 4 | 5 | 5 | Brit highlights Suno AI and the music industry open letter, arguing Lin-Manuel Miranda formulaic songs could be replaced. Sam challenges her, arguing AI can mimic beats but cannot recreate original cultural breakthroughs like Hamilton. | |
| The Cultural Barbell: Ephemeral Content Versus Enduring IP | 6 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Dave lays out the cultural barbell thesis where ephemeral AI fast-content proliferates while enduring human narrative brands like Star Wars or Taylor Swift stand out. The hosts largely agree and elaborate. | |
| TikTok Ban Prospects and US Defense Strategy Gridlock | 6 | 3 | 4 | 3 | Jessica predicts the TikTok ban bill will stall due to lack of political will, while Brit and Sam reflect on influencer commerce and collective creator brands like Dude Perfect. | |
| Ty Haney, Outdoor Voices, and Community-Led Commerce | 7 | 2 | 2 | 2 | Jessica reports on her interview with Ty Haney regarding the downfall of Outdoor Voices and the clash over community-led marketing ROI. | |
| The Rise of FAST Channels and Smart TV Interface Battle | 6 | 4 | 7 | 6 | Jessica introduces FAST channels on smart TV interfaces. Sam aggressively rejects the premise, dismissing FAST channels as modern browser toolbars that only extract value from confused seniors. | |
| Debating FAST Channels Versus Algorithmic Feeds | 6 | 5 | 7 | 6 | Sam insists linear algorithmic feeds like TikTok or YouTube are vastly superior to linear FAST cable channels, while Jessica and Brit defend lean-back viewing habits in middle America. | |
| Analyzing TV Advertising Declines and Smart TV Distribution | 6 | 3 | 4 | 5 | The panel discusses falling TV ad revenues and how smart TV default interfaces became prime real estate by accident, prompting Jessica to defend FAST channel engagement vortexes. | |
| Publishers Facing Search Traffic Collapse and AI Licensing | 8 | 3 | 3 | 3 | Jessica shares insider reporting on publishers licensing content to OpenAI out of panic over catastrophic Google search referral traffic drops. | |
| OpenPipe and the Looming Margin Collapse for OpenAI | 8 | 4 | 4 | 4 | Sam explains how OpenPipe routes and distills high-end OpenAI API calls into cheap open models, arguing OpenAI's margins and moat will be ruthlessly compressed. | |
| Apple Home Robotics Rumors and Roomba Market Movements | 5 | 3 | 3 | 3 | The group closes with banter regarding Apple's robotics explorations, Roomba's market volatility, and Sarah Tavel's thesis on AI startups. |
Statements from this episode (23)
Jessica Lessin predicts California high-speed rail will never be built
“There will be no high-speed rail.”
Lessin: LA understands content far better than SF or New York
“The sophistication of the content conversation in Los Angeles, shocker, happens to be way higher than in New York or San Francisco.”
Lessin: Hollywood believes AI makes truly original stories more valuable
“The creative world basically thinks AI is, it's just gonna make sourcing the truly, truly original stories that much more important.”
Sam Lessin: Generative AI content will be homogenizing, not original
“I think there's a very strong argument that it's very homogenizing. You know, yes, you'll get weirder and weirder porn, but it will all hit the same beats, right, that, like, have been trained on the underlying data.”
Sam Lessin: Lin-Manuel Miranda will face more competition due to AI
“Lin-Manuel might have more competition from less advanced creators, right, because of AI for the original breakthrough.”
Dave Morin: AI media is disposable 'sugar food' building no brand
“This is what I, look, I think that you end up with kind of a barbell, right? Where you have a whole lot of AI generated stuff that has an extremely fast metabolism through culture, right? Like this, like lots of stuff coming. It's like, I don't know, it's like…”
Jessica Lessin: Taylor Swift will buy a sports franchise team
“She's gonna buy a sports stadium franchise team.”
Sam Lessin: Generative AI will not structurally disrupt how music works
“But I don't think it's like this major point of discontinuity in like how music works. It'll be like, again, you'll have super duper stars.”
Jessica Lessin: TikTok is not going away in the US
“So, you know, I don't think it's going away. I'm more confident in that by the day.”
Jessica Lessin: MrBeast's Feastables are 'pretty shitty chocolate'
“It's kind of going from like Mr. Beast's Feastables, which by the way are pretty shitty chocolate in my opinion, to also influencers and celebrities launching brands, but not necessarily wanting their brand to be a part of it.”
Sam Lessin: Dude Perfect will secure $100M for their theme park
“Well, I don't know what's public or not, but they, I don't know if this is public. They're going to have that money.”
Lessin: Media unfairly lumped female founder departures together
“And for those of you listeners who kind of follow this, there's a wave of fairly contentious departures of young female founders from their companies that all kind of happened over a six month period and were unfairly lumped together in different ways.”
Jessica Lessin: FAST channels will be the next YouTube-scale creator wave
“But this is gonna be the next, like, YouTuber kind of thing.”
Sam Lessin: FAST channels mimic internet toolbars that monetize confused viewers
“It's toolbars. And so, but the reality is there are a bunch of old people who don't know how to use their televisions and will accidentally turn on Baywatch for a hundred hours, right? But those are not good customers, right? Like those aren't the people you a…”
Dave Morin: Amazon's content library is middle market to low quality
“I mean, I guess I get it that Amazon is interested in this, because Amazon's library has kind of been Middle market to low quality. Like I almost never watch Amazon content.”
Lessin: Non-Personalized Vertical TV Channels Are 'Dumb' and Pre-Data
“I just think the idea that you'd have an actual, purely verticalized channel, which isn't taking into account who you are, Brit, or who Jessica is, right? ... But that's so dumb. That's like going back to like the way the internet worked before data, right?”
Jessica Lessin: Endless AI-Generated Creator Content Is a Sure Bet for Engagement
“And so then you add like, add AI in and all of a sudden you can take The 20 minutes of original video you produce a week as a vlogger, right, and turn it, I mean, take all the then behind the scenes and then, and just make that something that doesn't end. Of c…”
Jessica Lessin: Publishers will accept low AI licensing payouts out of fear
“Like, they're all sitting here now saying, you know, do we take the relative pennies from OpenAI and Apple and everyone who wants to license our content? And I actually think, unfortunately, they are, because publishers are so scared about what any kind of dro…”
Lessin: An 'apocalypse' is coming for SEO-driven publisher search traffic
“There's just an apocalypse coming, I have to say, around this kind of, sort of, publisher-driven search traffic, and so, And ergo, you know, they're taking deals that make no sense.”
Sam Lessin: The foundational AI tool business will become an utter bloodbath
“So it's turtles all the way down, which is why, again, this industry will make a lot of money for the end users that are, like, getting value from these tools. But the actual tool business is going to be an utter bloodbath.”
Sam Lessin: OpenPipe is probably not a good business
“Now, is OpenPipe a good business? Probably not, right? Because the reality is, is that, like, you can do this yourself, and 50 other people will figure out an open source version of it, so it's unclear what the hosted platform will be worth for it.”