Jan 4, 2025 · 1h 11m · more-or-less
#80: More or Less Holiday Special Pt. 2 (Crypto and Antitrust) · More or Less Podcast
Sam Lessin · 19m spoken Jessica Lessin · 19m spoken Dave Morin · 13m spoken Brit Morin · 6m spoken Aaron Levie · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
▶ Watch on YouTube →
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
This holiday retrospective episode of the More or Less podcast examines the year's defining big tech antitrust battles, the resurgence of cryptocurrency toward historic highs, and how venture capital hype cycles and the incoming Trump administration will impact startup innovation.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 80.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 6.5 Guest teaching 2.4 Guest disagreement 2.0 The hosts pushing back 2.8
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 1:07:45 Levie calls out web3 MLM token schemes
Aaron forcefully dismisses the premise of web3 social networks, arguing that placing financial monetization at the foundation turns products into perverse MLM schemes where late arrivals receive diminished utility.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 13:17 Dave rejects competitor harm as antitrust violationDave bluntly halts Britt's argument, stating that harming competitors' ability to compete does not satisfy the legal definition of consumer harm required in monopoly cases.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:05:15 Levie explains blockchain data storage inefficiencyAaron delivers a clear technical breakdown demonstrating that storing social graphs or large data sets on a decentralized blockchain is an extraordinarily expensive and inefficient architecture for non-financial internet services.
The host holds their own ▶ 21:05 Dave details Microsoft's post-antitrust paralysisDave draws directly on his firsthand experience during Facebook's early ad negotiations with Microsoft to illustrate how regulatory settlements burden companies with dozens of compliance managers and halt product velocity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Retrospective: DOJ Antitrust Lawsuit Against Apple's Ecosystem | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Hosts Dave and Jessica lead the analysis of the DOJ's lawsuit against Apple, highlighting market definition flaws and historical parallels with Google search in 2008. Britt offers high-level thoughts on regulatory speed without challenging the hosts. | |
| Retrospective: Google Search Monopoly Ruling and Apple Deal | 7 | 3 | 3 | 6 | Sam and Dave dissect the Google search ruling, distinguishing between search engine dominance and search advertising. When Britt suggests harm to competitors' ability to compete proves antitrust violation, Dave firmly corrects her on legal consumer harm requirements. | |
| Retrospective: Google Breakup Proposals and Startup Ecosystem Impact | 7 | 2 | 2 | 2 | Dave and Jessica explore the impact of potential Google breakups on startup liquidity, citing historical precedents from AT&T and Microsoft. Britt contributes revenue figures for Android and Play, participating in an aligned, collaborative discussion. | |
| Retrospective: SEC Enforcement Actions and the Coinbase Lawsuit | 7 | 1 | 1 | 3 | Sam and Jessica examine SEC litigation against Coinbase and Ripple, arguing over whether regulators seek outright elimination or piecemeal enforcement concessions. Britt draws parallels to AI regulation, and the conversation remains collegial. | |
| Retrospective: Crypto Culture, Fandom CRM, and Token Models | 7 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Dave and Sam detail the structural evolution of crypto from speculative cult behavior toward backend CRM and token warrant deal structures. Britt supports the discussion with a concrete example of Selena Gomez's Rare Beauty loyalty architecture. | |
| Elon Musk, DOGE, and Tech Influence in the Trump Administration | 6 | 1 | 1 | 2 | The hosts debate Elon Musk's advisory role in DOGE and discuss the statutory mechanics of forced divestment and tax deferral for government appointees. Britt asks about conflicts of interest regarding federal contracts in a supportive exchange. | |
| Bitcoin's Surge Toward $100K and Long-Term Crypto Sentiment | 7 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Dave and Sam evaluate macro narrative shifts from AI back toward crypto and defense, unpacking the hazards of momentum investing at the seed stage. Britt prompts questions regarding fund stages, keeping the tone reflective. | |
| Aaron Levie on Crypto, Web3 Skepticism, and Network Incentives | 5 | 7 | 6 | 5 | Sam ribs Aaron Levie over his brief flirtation with crypto, prompting Aaron to lay out a thorough technical critique of web3 database inefficiencies and why financialized incentives distort Metcalfe's Law. Sam concedes to Aaron's technical reasoning. |
Statements from this episode (19)
Dave Morin: DOJ artificially narrowed Apple smartphone market to claim a monopoly
“You can't claim that I just on one simple piece of data, which is that Apple doesn't even have a monopoly position in the smartphone market. You know, and like the lawsuit had to reduce the scope of the smartphone market to like just the expensive part of the …”
Britt Morin: The Apple DOJ lawsuit will take 5 to 10 years
“And so it just is going to take five to 10 years. And by that time, Apple will be like, everyone will have moved on from this and like the whole OS will probably be much different anyways.”
Sam Lessin: Google Antitrust Monopoly Decision Will Be Struck Down
“I personally think if this is, if the case ended up coming down, they, that the courts defined it as the search ad market was not a monopoly, but the search consumer was, and that I, my money says this gets struck down, which is why the stock isn't.”
Dave Morin: US antitrust slowed Microsoft to "the crawl of the DMV"
“So it's almost like the government operating system showed up inside of Microsoft and slowed it down to like the crawl of the DMV for like 10 years, right? Microsoft, like after the, you know, time period was up, I don't remember how long it was, just like sli…”
Dave Morin: Big Tech Regulation Freezes Silicon Valley Startup Acquisitions and Innovation
“And what we do know is that more and more and more regulation of big tech equals less and less and less acquisition of small tech. Which results in the complete and total freezing of the innovation ecosystem of Silicon Valley.”
Sam Lessin: SEC has lost all major cases against legitimate crypto projects
“They've actually, my understanding is basically lost all of the major cases they've tried to do against legitimate projects. They've won them against the things that are pure scams, which there are in crypto, like they've won some cases, but all the major ones…”
Jessica Lessin: US government's current position is that Coinbase shouldn't exist
“The current position of the US government is basically that Coinbase shouldn't exist. I mean, if you look at the breadth, the number of businesses that it's arguing are operating illegally is numerous.”
Sam Lessin: Crypto risks strict regulation without consumer utility beyond Bitcoin
“I think crypto is in a moment where like it's searching for a meaningful use case beyond Bitcoin. I think those exist, but like the timeline is ticking to have those in a way that people care about, or the government gets a lot more free lane to be like, well,…”
Britt Morin: Lawmakers will regulate AI faster than crypto
“I think, like, I would imagine the time it took to start regulating crypto more efficiently is, is going to be longer than the time it takes to regulate AI, just because of the pace it's moving. And I think that, like, the lawmakers are having to, they're forc…”
Dave Morin: NFTs will become core infrastructure for enterprise CRM systems
“In the future, what an NFT was last year will, you know, be some big part of a CRM system. And, you know, that's like going to be great. Nobody's going to know the better.”
Sam Lessin: I am personally short Ethereum and long Solana
“You know, I'm very sure the Ethereum world. I'm very long. Dave Morin: Solana. Sam Lessin: It's a personal book.”
Sam Lessin: Missed out on massive Ripple token gains despite seed investment
“As a seed investor in Ripple, as a seed investor, a lot of things I can tell you a lot. I have a lot of missing zeros on my net worth for missing out on some of that.”
Sam Lessin: Appointees exploit forced divestment for tax-free asset diversification
“There's this hack where some Goldman Sachs guys got cabinet positions and they're like, well, the reason they did that, or like at some level of seniority of the government is because you are forced to sell, but you don't have to pay taxes on the sale. And so …”
Lessin: Bitcoin will face strong sell pressure around $100K
“Look, I think there will be a lot of cell pressure into like just around a hundred K just because a lot of people have been up and down and say that's a good number and I'm out.”
Sam Lessin: The Trump administration will take the wind out of AI
“I actually think what has gone on with the Trump thing is I think it's going to take some wind out of the AI story because the story is going to be about infrastructure and America and like all that type of stuff.”
Sam Lessin: Momentum investing fails at seed because realization takes too long
“The problem with doing it at seed is that the lead time from when you invest to the realization is so long that you might have gotten in front of the parade, but that doesn't mean you made any money, whereas if you do it in the public markets, it's great, righ…”
Aaron Levie: Decentralized internet infrastructure is costly and makes a bad database
“The thing that lost me was when everybody was arguing that, that what we should do is decentralize all of the infrastructure of the internet. That's just literally, it just costs more to then run every internet service. And it's actually not a very good databa…”
Aaron Levie: You cannot build a social network around financial incentives
“I just don't think you can build a social network where, where financial You know, where monetization or incentives is at the core of the network. I think people have to join these things because they want the utility of whatever the network is.”
Aaron Levie: Token incentives invert Metcalfe's Law by penalizing later users
“Adding a financial incentive sort of creates this very perverse dynamic where, where sort of, you know, you want to invite 10 friends and they invite 10 friends and then the early people get all the money and then the later people don't get any of the money. A…”