Sep 6, 2025 · 57m · more-or-less
#115 Anthropic at $170B: Should Unicorns Be Forced to IPO? · More or Less Podcast
0:00 / 0:00
▶ Watch on YouTube →
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the More or Less podcast, co-hosts Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, Sam Lessin, and Dave Morin dissect major tech industry developments, including Google's landmark DOJ antitrust remedies, Anthropic's $170 billion valuation, and shifting corporate M&A trends. Blending incisive market skepticism with cultural commentary, the hosts critique the circular economics of AI, the collapse of the digital media middle ground, and the rise of legal power across Silicon Valley.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 99.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 3.6 The hosts pushing back 3.6
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 24:45 Sam rejects mandatory public listing thresholds
Sam forcefully rejects Dave's proposal to force large private companies to IPO, characterizing mandatory public disclosures and governance rules as economically naive and communist.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 21:54 Dave challenges the legitimacy of staying private at scaleDave firmly refuses to accept the normalization of $100B+ private unicorns, pushing back against the consensus by asserting retail investors are being unfairly locked out of wealth creation.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 49:02 Dave educates on early mobile app monetization constraintsDave corrects Jessica's historical framing of digital media monetization, explaining that early App Store policies strictly prohibited non-gaming apps from implementing subscription paywalls.
The host holds their own ▶ 12:00 Jessica breaks down the legal nuances of Google's antitrust victoryJessica demonstrates commanding legal reporting expertise by walking through the specific judicial remedies Google faced and why the judge viewed GenAI as resetting the competitive landscape.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| More or Less Title Sequence | 3 | 1 | 2 | 1 | The hosts ease into the episode with casual banter regarding Riverside video glitching, post-Labor Day scheduling, and tech industry layoffs. Sam offers a cynical quip about OpenAI hiring content strategists at $300k, framing it as evidence AI copy tools are deficient. | |
| Pop Culture Corner: Taylor Swift, Super Bowl, and Benson Boone | 3 | 2 | 3 | 3 | The group debates whether Taylor Swift will headline the Super Bowl or perform at the Las Vegas Sphere. Sam rejects both concepts as gimmicky and technically inferior, while Dave pushes back by noting the repetitive Groundhog Day nature of the Eras Tour. | |
| The Surge in Tech M&A and the Rise of Lawyers | 5 | 3 | 4 | 4 | Brit shares data showing tech M&A volume has rebounded past 2021 bubble levels. Sam immediately scrutinizes the math, pointing out that $34 billion across 150 AI acquisitions yields a modest $200 million average deal size, while Jessica and Sam note lawyers are now out-earning investment bankers. | |
| Google's DOJ Antitrust Victory and Tech Remedies | 7 | 3 | 3 | 4 | Jessica provides extensive journalistic analysis of the Google DOJ search antitrust ruling, highlighting that the judge permitted Google to keep Chrome and its Apple distribution agreement. Sam notes Google added $270 billion in market capitalization on the news, effectively gaining half an OpenAI in equity value. | |
| Bad Tech UX and Silicon Valley School WhatsApp Drama | 2 | 1 | 2 | 1 | The co-hosts share comedic personal grievances about Microsoft account security flaws and school communications. Jessica and Brit bond over being elementary school finance chairs navigating chaotic parent WhatsApp and Discord channels. | |
| Anthropic at $170B: Should Mega-Unicorns Be Forced to IPO? | 6 | 4 | 6 | 6 | Dave argues that mega-unicorns like Anthropic and SpaceX should face mandatory public listing thresholds around $10 billion or $100 billion to prevent opaque derivative markets and protect retail investor access. Sam aggressively rejects the proposal as arbitrary and authoritarian, arguing private market participants should bear their own financial risks. | |
| The Information's Ozempic Survey and Weight-Loss Culture | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | Jessica unveils proprietary survey data from The Information showing 55% of respondent tech professionals take Ozempic. Dave articulates the clinical bull case regarding systemic inflammation and autoimmune disorders, while Sam humorously recounts his Garmin smart scale mistaking his son's weight for his own. | |
| Algorithmic Overlords and Narrow Social Media Feeds | 6 | 4 | 5 | 5 | Jessica discusses algorithmic feeds over-indexing on single topics like US Open tennis at the expense of other hobbies. Dave articulates a theory about thin culture monetization, but Brit and Sam strongly push back against Dave's assertion that tennis has unique product-market fit compared to football. | |
| The Death of the Media Middle Ground | 7 | 5 | 4 | 5 | Jessica examines Vogue USA's new editorial director targeting a smaller elite readership, validating The Information's subscription model. Dave pushes back with historical context from running Path and Dwell, explaining that non-game subscription infrastructure was virtually nonexistent in the early 2010s App Store. | |
| Pop Culture Corner: Sydney Sweeney Dating Rumors | 5 | 3 | 4 | 4 | Following banter about Sydney Sweeney rumors, Sam pitches an AI agent designed to automate petty nuisance lawsuits against corporations. The discussion turns philosophical as Sam contends AI compute is largely being wasted on zero-sum digital arms races that produce no real net economic output. |
Statements from this episode (22)
Sam Lessin: OpenAI is paying $300k for content strategists
“OpenAI is paying 300,000 dollars for content strategists.”
Sam Lessin: Taylor Swift will not do the Super Bowl halftime show
“And so I think Taylor is too smart to do the halftime show.”
Brit Morin: Taylor Swift will perform at the Las Vegas Sphere
“I also think, by the way, she's gonna do the sphere.”
Brit Morin: US AI Software Acquisitions Surpass Previous Three Years Combined
“They, yes, US software companies have spent nearly 33.8 billion on a 150 completed AI acquisitions, surpassing the combined volume of the past three years.”
Sam Lessin: Corporate Lawyers Now Earn More Than Investment Bankers
“It's like, bankers make less than lawyers now, which is always my favorite fact, which is kind of a great statement at the moment, which is like, the world's transparent enough and everything is about legal warfare, and so the lawyers are making more than the …”
Lessin: Judge Chastised DOJ and Cited AI in Google Antitrust Ruling
“The judge even chastised the DOJ for requesting Chrome to be spun off, saying that was such an extreme move and that the other remedies they were asking for would have like crippled the industry. And the highlight of it all is that they said Gen AI changed the…”
Brit Morin: Meta and Apple Will Use AI Defense in Antitrust Battles
“That makes a lot of sense, but now it feels like everyone's going to use that. Meta's going to use that. Apple's going to use that.”
Sam Lessin: Google Added $270B in Market Cap Post-Antitrust Decision
“I mean, the stock is up, what, 10% on this news, which is on a 2.7 trillion dollar, it's like two hundred seventy billion dollars. So what's amazing is that basically it's added half an open AI because of open AI.”
Dave Morin: Anthropic LPs are trading derivatives across its equity chain
“In the back channels, you've got the LPs of funds with primary positions in Anthropics selling derivatives, and then their LPs selling derivatives. There's like many derivatives being sold across the entire Anthropic equity chain.”
Dave Morin: Private companies should be required to IPO at $10B or $100B valuation
“There should be actually a threshold at which you're required to go public. And it, I mean, it seems like a hundred billion dollar valuation is a reasonable take on that. Ten billion might even be reasonable, but it's just a little bit I think unfortunate that…”
Sam Lessin: Sarbanes-Oxley made public markets too annoying when private money exists
“Everything going back to Sarbanes-Oxley and like the public markets have just become too fucking annoying for anyone to want to deal with. And so everyone's like, why would I deal with the public markets, right? And like, there's plenty of private money. So li…”
Jessica Lessin: Private markets will eventually stop giving free money to AI labs
“Every six months, OpenAI and Anthropic are just testing the private markets. And at some point, the answer will not come back as here's essentially all this free money”
Dave Morin: Anthropic's funding round is roughly 20x oversubscribed
“I mean, it looks like Anthropix, something like, 20 x oversubscribes still.”
Sam Lessin: Ozempic is going to run out of user growth
“I think what it's worth is very bearish on Ozempic, because they're gonna run out of people. They're just gonna run out of growth.”
Brit Morin: Ozempic pricing dropped in half over the past month
“They're already dropping pricing. They just dropped it in half in the last month.”
Dave Morin: Feeds segment users into thin cultures to maximize ad surfaces
“The feeds for a long time were trying to split you into as many cultures as it possibly could, right? Because you can, like, that makes sense from an advertising perspective, right? Like you want people to have as many thin cultures. You want to have a very la…”
Sam Lessin: Successful creators must be sought out independently, not rely on algorithms
“Well, for me, I think the reality is, like, on the creator thing, my whole theory is that actually the algorithms can't be important. Like, you have to be an important enough creator, like, slash community leader that people will seek you out independently.”
Sam Lessin: Moderate-scale internet businesses cannot maintain a successful long-term strategy
“You're either, like, targeting the one percent, and you can make a ton of money by charging a lot to people who really care, but it's small, right? Relatively speaking. Or you're, like, a completely fucking global mass platform. Like, I think the unsuccessful …”
Lessin: The legal market for petty lawsuits is poised to explode
“I think that there's a whole other legal market for petty lawsuits that's just
Poised to explode.”
Lessin says he would venture invest in an AI class action lawsuit bot
“If someone wants to pitch me a, I would venture invest in class action lawsuit bot, right?”