Dec 11, 2017 · 36m · how-i-built-this
Tom's Of Maine: Tom Chappell
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of NPR's How I Built This, host Guy Raz interviews Tom Chappell about pioneering natural personal care with Tom's of Maine, overcoming major operational and philosophical crises, and proving that ethical, sustainable businesses can achieve mainstream commercial success.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 37.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 3.9 Guest teaching 2.4 Guest disagreement 1.4 Guy pushing back 2.6
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 28:57 Tom rejects the suggestion that profit doesn't matter
When Guy Raz asks if never turning a profit would be acceptable for Rambler's Way, Chappell unequivocally refutes the premise, insisting a true businessman owes profitability to stakeholders.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 28:57 Raz presses on the necessity of profitabilityGuy Raz corners Chappell on his idealistic theological rhetoric by bluntly proposing that financial losses wouldn't bother him if his mission was pure.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 14:59 Chappell educates Raz on New England countercultureChappell corrects Raz's assumption that early eco-conscious customers were exclusively Berkeley hippies, explaining that conservative New Englanders harbored equal moral disdain for corporate pollution.
Guy holds their own ▶ 11:49 Raz challenges entering a toothpaste duopolyRaz confronts Chappell with the formidable market power of Crest and Colgate, questioning why any founder would attempt to enter such a locked-down consumer market.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Leaving Corporate Insurance for a New Life in Maine | 3 | 1 | 1 | 2 | Guy Raz conducts standard biographical discovery regarding Tom Chappell's early career at Aetna. Chappell explains how a narrow bonus structure pushed him to realize he was unsuited for corporate bureaucracy. | |
| Environmental Inspiration and Starting with a $5,000 Loan | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Chappell explains working with his father on phosphate-free textile chemistry and securing an initial five-thousand-dollar seed loan. Raz asks collaborative questions tracking the company's early founding narrative. | |
| Early Production and Formulating the Breakthrough Natural Toothpaste | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Raz explores the manufacturing mechanics, noting the improvised use of second-hand dairy equipment. Chappell educates Raz on the lack of natural product competitors beyond Dr. Bronner in the 1970s. | |
| Challenging Giants, Label Transparency, and Opposing Animal Testing | 5 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Raz presses on the apparent foolishness of challenging Procter and Gamble and Colgate in oral care. Chappell details consumer ingredient transparency movements and successfully lobbying the FDA against mandatory animal testing. | |
| Company Culture and the Transition to Conventional Retail | 4 | 3 | 2 | 4 | Raz challenges Chappell's cultural framing, assuming his initial customer base was exclusively leftist counterculture rather than mainstream. Chappell reframes his personal philosophy, distinguishing moral indignation from Berkeley-style street activism. | |
| Corporate Scaling, Rapid Growth, and an Existential Crisis | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Raz asks about hiring corporate consultants from McKinsey and Booz Allen to scale into conventional grocery chains. Chappell details the existential malaise that followed hitting numerical targets without creative purpose. | |
| Mid-Show Station Break and Upcoming Segment Teaser | 4 | 3 | 1 | 3 | Raz remarks on the eccentricity of an active CEO attending Harvard Divinity School mid-career. Chappell shares how theological studies under Martin Buber inspired community charity programs and values-driven corporate governance. | |
| The 1992 Deodorant Crisis and Product Recall Fallout | 4 | 2 | 1 | 3 | Raz probes into the disastrous 1992 deodorant reformulation recall and asks if anyone was fired over the resulting loss. Chappell candidly takes personal responsibility for the four-hundred-and-fifty-thousand-dollar recall. | |
| Sale to Colgate and Founding Sustainable Apparel Brand Rambler's Way | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Raz questions why Chappell did not retire after selling to Colgate for one hundred million dollars. Chappell discusses his motivation to disrupt the polluting textile industry by starting Rambler's Way. | |
| Balancing Ethical Philosophy, Practical Profitability, and Wealth Stewardship | 5 | 4 | 4 | 5 | Raz directly tests Chappell's convictions by asking if he would be content if Rambler's Way never turned a profit. Chappell firmly rejects this assumption, stating that profitability is an indispensable moral responsibility of business. | |
| Reflections on Luck, Divine Grace, and the Rockwell Painting | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Raz asks his classic luck-versus-skill closing question and discusses the Norman Rockwell painting before transitioning to the 'How You Built That' profile of Paul Castor. Chappell reframes secular luck as divine grace. |
Statements from this episode (15)
Tom Chappell: Norman Rockwell recruited him at 10 for a magazine cover
“As a matter of fact, Norman Rockwell found me At a choir practice in Pittsfield, Massachusetts at St. Stephen's Church, pulled me out and asked if I wanted to be on the cover of the Saturday Evening Post, and I was 10 years old, I had never heard of the Saturd…”
Chappell: Ranked #1 salesman at Aetna but received only a $600 raise
“Well, I was the number one salesman in my class of 65 people, but I was then given my raise. The raise was 600 dollars, and then I found out the lowest raise was 300 dollars.”
Tom's of Maine launched with a $5,000 loan backed by IBM stock
“I asked a friend to put up 5000 dollars. He and his wife were involved in the creation of this new alternative school in Kennebunk called The School Around Us. We became good friends, and I told him of my idea, and, ah, he had some IBM stock and took it to the…”
Tom's of Maine created the first natural toothpaste, deodorant, and mouthwash
“We were the first person to put a toothpaste together, a deodorant together, a mouthwash. All of that was, we were first time providers of that.”
Ralph Nader pushed 1970s mandates for personal care ingredient labeling
“Ralph Nader in the mid-seventies was successful in facilitating legislation that required that ingredients in personal care products had to be on the label.”
Tom's of Maine pushed the personal care industry to end animal testing
“All the other companies stopped testing on animals, so we had a big influence.”
Chappell: Tom's of Maine became the Procter & Gamble of natural foods
“Within the natural food store community or distribution system, we were the Procter and Gamble of that class of trade.”
Tom's of Maine scaled by hiring McKinsey and Booz Allen talent
“We brought on people from Booz Allen Hamilton, McKinsey and Company, and so from 1981 to 1986, ah, we were executing a strategic plan that, ah, had a lot to do with changing your message so that you could appeal to that new consumer.”
Chappell: Tom's of Maine stalled with zero new products for four years
“The crisis was that we had achieved our strategic benchmarks, and I was feeling quite empty because we hadn't created a new product in four years.”
Tom's of Maine gave employees 5% of paid time for volunteer work
“We would organize that charity work or they would elect to do what they wanted to do in the community. It might be literacy work. It could be helping on the Appalachian Trail. It was generally community-based, environmental-based needs. Then they loved it. I m…”
Chappell: Tom's of Maine fired zero employees over the 1992 deodorant recall
“No, I think I took the hit for that. No, we didn't fire anybody.”
Chappell: Tom's of Maine succeeded by stealing market share from CPG giants
“The reason I was successful at Tom's of Maine is because I took market share away from Colgate, Procter & Gamble, and Unilever. So when you can take market share away from the commodities by an alternative approach to that product development and that product …”