Jun 27, 2020 · 27m · how-i-built-this
How I Built Resilience: Live with Melanie Perkins and Bill Creelman
0:00 / 0:00
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this special resilience-focused episode of How I Built This, host Guy Raz interviews Canva co-founder Melanie Perkins and Spindrift founder Bill Creelman about navigating global disruption, pivoting business models, and maintaining values-driven leadership during crises.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 33.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 3.3 Guest teaching 2.6 Guest disagreement 0.8 Guy pushing back 1.3
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 5:13 Melanie corrects Guy's definition of introversion
Melanie pushes back against Guy's premise that introverted leadership requires faking behavior, explicitly distinguishing introversion as an energy source rather than social shyness.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 16:21 Guy challenges Spindrift's 2020 growth projectionsGuy presses Bill on whether e-commerce gains can truly make up for lost grocery foot traffic and food service disruptions during ongoing shutdowns.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 5:13 Explaining the psychological mechanics of introversionMelanie educates the host on how introverted executives operate, dismantling the misconception of shyness in favor of solitary energy renewal.
Guy holds their own ▶ 13:30 Guy draws parallel to Clif Bar's pandemic pantry loadingGuy demonstrates deep industry context by contrasting Spindrift's situation with insights from previous interviews with Clif Bar leadership regarding shelf-stable demand surges.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Managing Canva Remotely and Prioritizing Community Support | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Guy Raz opens by citing Canva's recent valuation jump to six billion dollars and asks targeted questions about potential layoffs and Australian remote work policies. Melanie Perkins clarifies that Canva remained profitable with strong cash reserves, smoothly pivoting to prioritize community support. | |
| Leading as an Introvert and Channeling Focus into Mission | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Guy probes Melanie on leading 900 people while being an introvert, suggesting she had to fake it until becoming comfortable. Melanie gently educates him that introversion is about where one draws energy from rather than shyness. | |
| The Philosophy and Monetization of Canva's Freemium Model | 4 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Guy demonstrates familiarity with Canva's subscription tiers and pricing, asking directly how the free tier is monetized. Melanie explains their founding philosophy of democratizing design, which Guy synthesizes as paid subscriptions subsidizing free users. | |
| Entrepreneurial Advice: Niche Problem Solving and Just-In-Time Learning | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | Guy passes along a listener question about founding a company in crisis, drawing a contrast between Perkins' physical yearbook origins and today's digital shift. Melanie outlines just-in-time learning and details rapid transitions toward Zoom backgrounds and infographics. | |
| Melanie Perkins' Five-Year Perspective and Interview Wrap-Up | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Guy wraps up with Melanie and introduces Bill Creelman, comparing Spindrift's supply chain experiences to those shared by Clif Bar's founders. Bill shares the contrasting dynamics of a massive retail surge alongside an immediate collapse in food service accounts. | |
| Consumer Brand Discovery and the Demand for Real Ingredients | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Guy asks whether decreased foot traffic in grocery stores will dampen growth, referencing Bill's previous sale of Stirrings during the 2008 recession. Bill explains how channel shifts prompt consumer product trial and how economic downturns reduce competitive noise for new ideas. | |
| Leveraging Nuanced Brand Storytelling in Modern Retail | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Guy brings forward a listener question challenging the traditional business playbook of remaining silent on social and racial justice issues. Bill explains his internal journey, committing Spindrift to internal scorecards and transparent accountability. | |
| Bill Creelman's Five-Year Vision for Systemic Equality | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Guy asks Bill for his five-year forward perspective on lessons from the pandemic and social justice movements. Bill delivers a collaborative closing reflection on hope for systemic change, improved education, and diverse capital allocation. |
Statements from this episode (12)
Perkins: Canva avoided pandemic layoffs due to profitability and rapid growth
“No, we've been in a fortunate position that you know, we're a profitable company. We had, you know, strong cash reserves and cannabis continued to grow rapidly throughout this time.”
Perkins: 30 million people worldwide rely on Canva
“We've got thirty million people around the world that are relying on Canva to help with their social media, to help with their marketing, to help with their education.”
Canva committed to paying all contractors throughout the 2020 COVID recession
“We made a statement early on that We're going to ensure all of our contractors will continue to be paid throughout this recession throughout, throughout this time.”
Perkins: Canva reached 900 employees and millions of users by mid-2020
“I think if I was dropped into a 900 person company with millions of people around the world using our product, that would be quite scary.”
Perkins: Founders should solve a small niche problem before expanding wide
“Just like starting at that really small thing, starting niche and then going wide, I think is really important.”
Perkins: Founders should adopt a just-in-time approach to learning
“I believe in this concept of just in time learning. You kind of learn everything just in time or often just after you need to know it.”
Perkins: Canva users rapidly pivoted from physical prints to digital assets
“So they're creating less event invitations, they're creating less business cards, they're creating less flyers all of the things that sort of really resonate with the physical world. And what they are creating way more of is things like Zoom backgrounds and pr…”
Creelman: Spindrift saw a 200% to 400% sales lift during initial lockdowns
“When the initial push came, we saw anywhere from, you know, sort of two to 400% lift.”
Creelman: Spindrift Was Developed During the 2007-2009 Recession
“We, so we started our development for Spindrift in the middle of the economic downturn in 2000, you know, sort of seven, eight, and nine. When we launched the first batch in 2010, there hadn't been innovation in, in the food and beverage market in, in sort of …”
Creelman: Recessions lower the cost and competition for launching new products
“In some ways by the innovation pipeline kind of slowing down a little bit, As typically happens during cycles like this, it gives you a chance to be louder and it's a less crowded, you know, market place. And the investment often is less because there's just l…”
Creelman: Pioneering food brands require consumers to pause and consider purchases
“I think that's true of a lot of food and beverage brands that are pioneering a category, that are doing something really different. You need people to hit pause and spend a minute or two longer considering the purchase”