Nov 16, 2020 · 1h 15m · how-i-built-this
Kenneth Cole: Kenneth Cole
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of NPR's How I Built This, host Guy Raz interviews designer and entrepreneur Kenneth Cole about building a global fashion brand through guerrilla marketing, mastering shoe manufacturing, and pioneering corporate social activism. Cole discusses navigating industry consolidation, managing the pressures of Wall Street, and privatizing his company to maintain long-term relevance.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 34.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.4 Guy pushing back 1.3
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 43:08 Cole rejects political label
Cole directly pushes back against Guy's framing that he wears liberal politics on his sleeve, insisting his messages are purely humanitarian and social.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 58:39 Guy challenges privatising valuationGuy plays devil's advocate on behalf of burned shareholders who bought shares at peak prices and suffered steep losses during the privatisation.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:01:13 Cole explains retail obsolescenceCole provides a masterclass on how e-commerce aggregation eliminated the core economic value proposition of physical outlet stores.
Guy holds their own ▶ 50:48 Guy cites Ken Hicks Foot Locker analysisGuy brings deep industry knowledge by citing his previous interview with former Foot Locker CEO Ken Hicks to explain retail co-location dynamics.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Trailblazing Social Activism in Corporate Fashion | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Guy opens with an extensive historical breakdown of Kenneth Cole's early ad campaigns on AIDS, gun control, and civil rights before introducing Cole's upbringing in Brooklyn. | |
| Father's Military Discipline and Entering the Shoe Business | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Guy inquires about Cole's father and how Cole ended up in the Williamsburg factory instead of law school. Cole explains his initial reluctance and eventual fascination with the sample room. | |
| The Candies Breakthrough and Transition to Importing | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about the introduction of the Candies shoe line. Cole explains why pivoting to importing from Europe was far more lucrative than domestic manufacturing. | |
| Striking Out Independently from the Family Firm | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | Guy explores Cole's decision to break away from his father in 1982. Cole describes the tension and his father's prediction that he would return. | |
| Securing Italian Factory Credit and Early Accounts | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy presses on financing without capital. Cole explains obtaining supplier credit in Italy and receiving immediate factoring on receivables from high-end department store orders. | |
| Apartment Operations, Sam Edelman, and Market Week | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Guy gently teases Cole's initial lack of a clear plan in 1982. Cole describes running operations with Sam Edelman in an apartment and rushing to make Market Week. | |
| Kenneth Cole Productions and the 40-Foot Trailer Permit | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Cole details how he bypassed expensive showroom costs by renaming the company Kenneth Cole Productions Inc. to get a municipal filming permit for a 40-foot trailer. | |
| Selling 40,000 Pairs of Shoes from the Manhattan Trailer | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Cole explains dealing with union reps and dynamically altering his shoe orders from a public payphone while selling 40,000 pairs during Market Week. | |
| Department Store Breakthrough and Economic Downturn Opportunities | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about the specific product differentiation. Cole explains stonewashed suede, canvas materials, and capitalising on the 1980s economic downturn. | |
| Nightlife Inspiration, Consumer Needs, and First-Year Growth | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | Guy contrasts Cole's philosophy of giving customers what they want with Steve Jobs's dictum. Cole clarifies that salesmanship requires active listening over dictating trends. | |
| Brand Expansion into Menswear and Leather Goods | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about the expansion into men's shoes and leather goods. Cole explains his decision to avoid competing with Nine West downmarket in favor of brand prestige. | |
| The HIV/AIDS Crisis and Aligning Fashion with Purpose | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about interior designer David Brugnoli's influence. Cole explains how observing the devastation and stigma of the AIDS crisis compelled him to integrate social purpose into his business. | |
| The Groundbreaking Future of Our Children Campaign | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Cole recounts organizing Annie Leibovitz and barefoot top models like Christy Brinkley for the iconic 'For the Future of Our Children' pro bono campaign. | |
| Social Advocacy vs. Politics and AMFAR Leadership | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | Guy notes Cole's high-profile marriage into the Cuomo family and asks if he ever worried about being overtly political. Cole firmly pushes back, arguing his messaging is human and social rather than political. | |
| Mid-Show Break and How I Built This Book Announcement | 6 | 2 | 1 | 1 | After the mid-show book promo, Guy queries Cole on his 1994 decision to open retail stores and go public to fund rapid footprint expansion. | |
| Brand Licensing, Liz Claiborne Deal, and Brand Dilution | 6 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Guy draws an insightful parallel to Foot Locker CEO Ken Hicks's Nike store experience. Cole admits regret over the massive Liz Claiborne licensing deal that diluted his brand equity. | |
| Executive Leadership Changes and Strategy to Go Private | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about Cole stepping down to lead amfAR and subsequently returning to reverse declining revenues. Cole explains why public scrutiny prevented restructuring. | |
| Legal Hurdles and Privatizing the Company | 6 | 4 | 3 | 4 | Guy plays devil's advocate regarding shareholders harmed by privatising at a discounted valuation. Cole defends the buyout premium and denounces opportunistic class-action lawyers. | |
| Shuttering Retail Stores in the E-Commerce Era | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks about closing nearly 100 retail and outlet stores. Cole explains how e-commerce rendered the physical outlet store model obsolete. | |
| 2015 Rebranding, Footwear Focus, and Mask Innovation | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy inquires about the 2015 rebrand and current footwear pricing. Cole details refocusing on Core shoes and developing high-tech protective face masks. | |
| COVID Resilience and Launching the Mental Health Coalition | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks Cole about his own mental health and founding the Mental Health Coalition. Cole outlines assembling major mental health non-profits to build a stigma-free vocabulary. | |
| Reflections on Success, Luck, and Modern Brand Relevance | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | Guy asks the signature luck versus skill question and the longevity of the brand. Cole re-conceptualises modern consumers as their own personal brands. | |
| Archival Film Footage and Shoe Closet Banter | 4 | 1 | 2 | 1 | Guy and Kenneth engage in lighthearted banter about Guy's Chukka boots and Birkenstocks before the final show credits roll. |
Statements from this episode (30)
Cole originally avoided footwear, viewing women's shoes as unmasculine
“But the last thing on my mind was, the last thing I would have imagined myself doing, and the least masculine thing I could have imagined myself doing was going to the women's shoe business. So it wasn't something I ever contemplated.”
Cole: Importing shoes avoids domestic factory overhead and downside risk
“And then it became very clear that in that sort of a business model, if you do a lot of business, you make a ton of money. If you do a little bit, you make less, but you don't have all the overhead that we had in a domestic shoe factory.”
Securing credit from Italian shoe factories is easier than from American banks
“It's much easier to get credit from a factory that needs business in Italy than from an American bank that doesn't.”
Cole: Kenneth Cole sold to Saks, Macy's, and Bloomingdale's in year one
“My first year in business, I sold Saks, I sold Macy's, I sold Boomingdale's, I sold Bergdorf's, I think.”
Naming a company after yourself bypasses lengthy trademark clearance risks
“I couldn't take the chance of a made-up name, and finding out many, many months or years later whether it was acceptable or not through the trademark process, because we didn't have Google in those days. But I also knew you can usually get away with your own n…”
Cole: Startups fail because founders underestimate time to ROI
“And at the time I think 60 plus percent of businesses, probably even more today, Startup businesses fail in the first year, because people underestimate the amount of time it takes before there's a return on that investment.”
Kenneth Cole faked a movie production to secure a NYC trailer permit
“That afternoon, we went to a stationery store, changed the companies, the letterhead, mechanical ink, the chemical productions ink, and then we filed for a permit, sent the letter to the mayor that afternoon, asking for permission to shoot a full-length motion…”
Kenneth Cole sold 40,000 shoe pairs from his faked movie trailer
“I sold maybe 40,000 pair at the show.”
Kenneth Cole achieved positive cash flow by collecting before paying Italian factories
“And I had them flown in from Italy and I would then turn around and ship them before I had to pay for them. And then I got paid before I had to pay the factories. So I had positive cash flow like three months into business.”
Cole: Economic downturns create the greatest opportunities to reinvent
“So, and then in tough times, I've always said are the greatest opportunities because people, you know, when things are good, people want to just do what they're doing and do more of it. And it's only when things are difficult that they looking to kind of re re…”
Cole: Kenneth Cole generated $5M in its first year in business
“The company, its first year in business did five million dollars.”
Cole expanded product categories to avoid diluting brand equity with lower prices
“Instead I chose to keep the essence of the brand the way it was, and create more products for the same person, and then not that much later, including the male complement to the women's shoes, which is myself.”
Americans wouldn't go barefoot for 15 years if all shoe stores closed
“If every shoe store in America closed its doors tomorrow at 12 o'clock, hardly an American would go barefoot for 15 years.”
Cole: Annie Leibovitz photographed Kenneth Cole's AIDS campaign pro bono
“I asked Annie if she would, on a pro bono basis, because I didn't really have any money, if she would help me do a campaign, do a photograph, and she agreed to do it.”
Cole: Christie Brinkley posed eight months pregnant for AIDS ad
“Christy Brinkley was one of them, and Christy
Did it, by the way, and she was eight and a half months pregnant, and Christy hadn't been seen publicly in, I don't know, five months, but she allowed herself to be photographed for this ad, eight and a half months…”
Kenneth Cole: Brand campaigns are social and human messages, not political
“I tell people that I'm not political. That my messages are not political messages, they're social messages, or maybe human messages, but they're not social, they've been, they're social messages that have been politicized, but I don't talk about politics. And,…”
Cole: US department store chains shrank from 70-80 to 15-20
“When I started my business, there was maybe 70 or 80 department store chains in the United States. All of a sudden, 10 years later, there's maybe 15 or 20.”
Cole: Product design alone is worthless without direct consumer visibility
“But there were other designs, and if you don't see my designs, like a tree in the forest, I'm only as good as you know me to be. And if I'm not out there, then I don't exist.”
Kenneth Cole stores boosted wholesale shoe sales at co-located Nordstrom locations
“I remember having a conversation with Nordstrom at the time, and they were a big customer, and they were challenging the fact that we had all these stores, and I would show them quantifiably how every mall that we had a store, where they had a store, they did …”
Cole: Liz Claiborne deal guaranteed $250M annual sales by year five
“We licensed women's wear to Liz Claiborne, and they agreed to huge Minimum sales levels. Actually, two hundred and fifty million dollars a year, which is crazy high numbers. Guaranteed by the... By the fifth year of our relationship.”
Cole: Liz Claiborne licensing deal diluted brand value and went down-market
“It was a good short-term decision, but I didn't have appropriate foresight. And over time, it did dilute the brand value. So it did take the product down market.”
Public markets are completely undesirable unless necessary for business financing
“So being public is not, you know, a desirable place to be unless you need public markets to finance and or run your business.”
Cole: Companies cannot easily shrink and restructure while public
“We needed to get smaller to get bigger. We needed to shrink the business step back. And we couldn't do that as a public company, partially because of my personal visibility, but as a private company, you can do those things.”
A class-action lawsuit was filed one hour after Kenneth Cole announced privatization
“When we announced that we were going to do this, we announced it at nine o'clock when the New York Stock Exchange opened, we put out an announcement. We had a class action suit filed and on our desk By 10 o'clock, an hour later.”
Kenneth Cole: Owns 100% of Kenneth Cole Productions
“Well, at that time I owned the 80%, now I own the hundred.”
Kenneth Cole: E-commerce rendered the retail outlet store model obsolete
“I think they do, but also what changed in that period of time is the internet. You know, the outlet stores were a way to bring value to the customer, but the internet does it effortlessly. There's a whole marketplace that aggregates the best existing product w…”
Kenneth Cole: Took company private specifically to close retail stores
“And the reason we went private is to close them.”
Kenneth Cole: Consumers buy value rather than price
“I don't think people buy price. They buy value, and people learned a long time ago, you pay a dollar for something, you never wear it, you pay too much.”
Cole: Licensing model shielded Kenneth Cole from worse COVID-19 fallout
“We're better off than most because a lot of our, the business model is built on, is on, on contractual relationships and licenses. So there's some level of assured income.”
Modern consumers view themselves as brands rather than buying fashion brands
“People don't buy brands today, I don't believe. I think people recognize today that they are their own brands, and every day they wake up and they curate their own brands on their social media. And they don't just curate the content, they also curate the audie…”