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Dec 23, 2020 · 31m · how-i-built-this

How I Built Resilience: Morra Aarons-Mele of Women Online

Morra Aarons-Mele · 14m spoken Guy Raz · 13m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Host Guy Raz interviews Women Online founder Morra Aarons-Mele about leading through uncertainty, managing clinical anxiety and introversion, and building organizational resilience. Aarons-Mele provides practical frameworks for low-stress networking, remote work boundaries, and balancing vulnerability with executive competence.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 46.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 3.5 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 0.7 Guy pushing back 0.3
05100:0010:0020:0030:000:00–2:13 · Guy as informed peer 0/10 NPR Member Station Support Appeal and Year in Review Solo host segment featuring an NPR year-in-review message and fundraising appeal before introducing the episode guest.2:17–7:17 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Redefining Introversion and Clinical Anxiety in Leadership Guy and Morra exchange shared perspectives on introversion and leadership, debunking the misconception that entrepreneurs must be naturally charismatic extroverts.7:18–12:16 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Strategic Networking and the Ten Touches Rule Morra explains her 'ten touches' networking framework for weak ties, and Guy validates her advice by recounting early career encouragement at NPR.12:16–18:35 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Mitigating Zoom Fatigue and Mid-Show Break Morra outlines tactics for avoiding Zoom fatigue before diving into leadership vulnerability, citing emotional intelligence research when Guy asks how to justify vulnerability to traditional executives.18:36–24:26 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Audience Questions on Pitching, Support Teams, and Networking Addressing audience questions on pitch anxiety and networking, Guy adds his personal experience managing broadcast performance nerves and cites Ron Heifetz's balcony metaphor.24:26–29:19 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Audience Questions on Personal Branding, Oversharing, and Mental Health Morra and Guy answer questions on oversharing versus authentic vulnerability, with Guy referencing past guest Melissa Butler and the importance of daily exercise for mood stabilization.0:00–2:13 · Guest teaching 0/10 NPR Member Station Support Appeal and Year in Review Solo host segment featuring an NPR year-in-review message and fundraising appeal before introducing the episode guest.2:17–7:17 · Guest teaching 4/10 Redefining Introversion and Clinical Anxiety in Leadership Guy and Morra exchange shared perspectives on introversion and leadership, debunking the misconception that entrepreneurs must be naturally charismatic extroverts.7:18–12:16 · Guest teaching 4/10 Strategic Networking and the Ten Touches Rule Morra explains her 'ten touches' networking framework for weak ties, and Guy validates her advice by recounting early career encouragement at NPR.12:16–18:35 · Guest teaching 5/10 Mitigating Zoom Fatigue and Mid-Show Break Morra outlines tactics for avoiding Zoom fatigue before diving into leadership vulnerability, citing emotional intelligence research when Guy asks how to justify vulnerability to traditional executives.18:36–24:26 · Guest teaching 4/10 Audience Questions on Pitching, Support Teams, and Networking Addressing audience questions on pitch anxiety and networking, Guy adds his personal experience managing broadcast performance nerves and cites Ron Heifetz's balcony metaphor.24:26–29:19 · Guest teaching 4/10 Audience Questions on Personal Branding, Oversharing, and Mental Health Morra and Guy answer questions on oversharing versus authentic vulnerability, with Guy referencing past guest Melissa Butler and the importance of daily exercise for mood stabilization.0:00–2:13 · Guest disagreement 0/10 NPR Member Station Support Appeal and Year in Review Solo host segment featuring an NPR year-in-review message and fundraising appeal before introducing the episode guest.2:17–7:17 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Redefining Introversion and Clinical Anxiety in Leadership Guy and Morra exchange shared perspectives on introversion and leadership, debunking the misconception that entrepreneurs must be naturally charismatic extroverts.7:18–12:16 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Strategic Networking and the Ten Touches Rule Morra explains her 'ten touches' networking framework for weak ties, and Guy validates her advice by recounting early career encouragement at NPR.12:16–18:35 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Mitigating Zoom Fatigue and Mid-Show Break Morra outlines tactics for avoiding Zoom fatigue before diving into leadership vulnerability, citing emotional intelligence research when Guy asks how to justify vulnerability to traditional executives.18:36–24:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Audience Questions on Pitching, Support Teams, and Networking Addressing audience questions on pitch anxiety and networking, Guy adds his personal experience managing broadcast performance nerves and cites Ron Heifetz's balcony metaphor.24:26–29:19 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Audience Questions on Personal Branding, Oversharing, and Mental Health Morra and Guy answer questions on oversharing versus authentic vulnerability, with Guy referencing past guest Melissa Butler and the importance of daily exercise for mood stabilization.0:00–2:13 · Guy pushing back 0/10 NPR Member Station Support Appeal and Year in Review Solo host segment featuring an NPR year-in-review message and fundraising appeal before introducing the episode guest.2:17–7:17 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Redefining Introversion and Clinical Anxiety in Leadership Guy and Morra exchange shared perspectives on introversion and leadership, debunking the misconception that entrepreneurs must be naturally charismatic extroverts.7:18–12:16 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Strategic Networking and the Ten Touches Rule Morra explains her 'ten touches' networking framework for weak ties, and Guy validates her advice by recounting early career encouragement at NPR.12:16–18:35 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Mitigating Zoom Fatigue and Mid-Show Break Morra outlines tactics for avoiding Zoom fatigue before diving into leadership vulnerability, citing emotional intelligence research when Guy asks how to justify vulnerability to traditional executives.18:36–24:26 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Audience Questions on Pitching, Support Teams, and Networking Addressing audience questions on pitch anxiety and networking, Guy adds his personal experience managing broadcast performance nerves and cites Ron Heifetz's balcony metaphor.24:26–29:19 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Audience Questions on Personal Branding, Oversharing, and Mental Health Morra and Guy answer questions on oversharing versus authentic vulnerability, with Guy referencing past guest Melissa Butler and the importance of daily exercise for mood stabilization.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 95% · guest 5%0:00 · Guy 95% · guest 5%3:00 · Guy 33.1% · guest 66.9%3:00 · Guy 33.1% · guest 66.9%6:00 · Guy 38.6% · guest 61.4%6:00 · Guy 38.6% · guest 61.4%9:00 · Guy 31.7% · guest 68.3%9:00 · Guy 31.7% · guest 68.3%12:00 · Guy 44.5% · guest 55.5%12:00 · Guy 44.5% · guest 55.5%15:00 · Guy 37% · guest 63%15:00 · Guy 37% · guest 63%18:00 · Guy 55.3% · guest 44.7%18:00 · Guy 55.3% · guest 44.7%21:00 · Guy 44.2% · guest 55.8%21:00 · Guy 44.2% · guest 55.8%24:00 · Guy 38.5% · guest 61.5%24:00 · Guy 38.5% · guest 61.5%27:00 · Guy 40.8% · guest 59.2%27:00 · Guy 40.8% · guest 59.2%30:00 · Guy 53.8% · guest 46.2%30:00 · Guy 53.8% · guest 46.2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 23:32 Dismissing high-pressure networking obligations

Morra bluntly tells anxious founders that they should just leave networking events if they cause pain, puncturing the fear that missing an event forfeits major VC funding.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 16:45 Guy presses on the practical value of leader vulnerability

Guy presses on a common critique from older corporate executives, asking Morra to explicitly justify why displaying vulnerability makes someone an effective business leader.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 17:12 Morra outlines the data behind emotional intelligence and leadership

Morra educates the host with empirical backing, referencing four decades of emotional intelligence data and Amy Cuddy's research on balancing competence with vulnerability.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 22:24 Guy synthesizes co-founder dynamics with Harvard leadership theory

Guy builds on Morra's operational advice by applying Ron Heifetz's Harvard Kennedy School framework of getting on the balcony to maintain perspective.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
NPR Member Station Support Appeal and Year in Review 0000 Solo host segment featuring an NPR year-in-review message and fundraising appeal before introducing the episode guest.
Redefining Introversion and Clinical Anxiety in Leadership 4411 Guy and Morra exchange shared perspectives on introversion and leadership, debunking the misconception that entrepreneurs must be naturally charismatic extroverts.
Strategic Networking and the Ten Touches Rule 3400 Morra explains her 'ten touches' networking framework for weak ties, and Guy validates her advice by recounting early career encouragement at NPR.
Mitigating Zoom Fatigue and Mid-Show Break 4511 Morra outlines tactics for avoiding Zoom fatigue before diving into leadership vulnerability, citing emotional intelligence research when Guy asks how to justify vulnerability to traditional executives.
Audience Questions on Pitching, Support Teams, and Networking 5410 Addressing audience questions on pitch anxiety and networking, Guy adds his personal experience managing broadcast performance nerves and cites Ron Heifetz's balcony metaphor.
Audience Questions on Personal Branding, Oversharing, and Mental Health 5410 Morra and Guy answer questions on oversharing versus authentic vulnerability, with Guy referencing past guest Melissa Butler and the importance of daily exercise for mood stabilization.

Statements from this episode (11)

Insight
Aarons-Mele: Introversion is about energy management, not shyness
“Happy introverts who don't have overwhelming social anxiety. We can talk about that in a minute. Need to manage their energy. I always say, Oprah, huge introvert, talks about it all the time. It's not about, can I hold the room? Am I funny? Am I shy? It's just…”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 5:15
Insight
Aarons-Mele: Holding a room is a learnable skill like Excel
“The thing about it is you can learn how to hold a room. It's a skill. It's a total skill. It's like learning how to run a meeting. It's like Excel. When you love what you do and you have passion, you can absolutely learn to talk about it in a way that compels …”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 6:50
Assertion Supported
Aarons-Mele coined 'entrepreneurship porn' to critique the always-on founder myth
“I actually coined the term entrepreneurship porn in an article in Harvard Business Review, I think in 2013, when I wrote about the idea that entrepreneurs had to be tireless, charismatic, always on, on the cover of Fast Company Magazine, and in fact that most …”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 7:34
Insight
Aarons-Mele: Praising others on LinkedIn scientifically improves mood and cuts anxiety
“The act of getting out of your head and saying something nice to someone else. It changes your mood. This is actually scientifically proven. So if you find yourself stewing in a bit of anxiety right now about the future and who isn't, write an endorsement for …”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 9:33
Insight
Aarons-Mele: Overwhelmed networkers fail by making big asks too early
“I think that the thing that people who get overly overwhelmed by the idea of I have to be networking do is that they reach out right away with too big an ask. You know, they're asking someone to marry them when they haven't even been on a first date.”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 11:35
Insight
Aarons-Mele argues Zoom meetings act as draining performances causing passive disengagement
“A Zoom meeting is really a performance, especially if you're talking. If you're not talking and you're on Zoom, you're actually more likely to become disengaged and depressed. So Zoom is often draining for everyone, even introverts.”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 13:00
Disclosure
Aarons-Mele maintains a ratio of three audio calls per video meeting
“For every one Zoom, I try to do three audio calls, because I think it recharges people.”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 13:44
Insight
Aarons-Mele notes every successful entrepreneur experiences severe, nauseating pitch nervousness
“Don't ever think that the fact that you get nervous Before you go talk to people and you want to throw up and you want to hide in the bathroom means that you can't be a successful entrepreneur because every successful entrepreneur feels that way.”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 19:26
Disclosure
Aarons-Mele: Women Online lost 30% of business overnight in March 2020
“When we had that Oh my gosh, we've lost 30% of our business overnight in March this year.”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 21:53
Insight
Aarons-Mele warns founders to practice vulnerability without broadcasting personal messes
“Oversharing in the social media age is a temptation that a lot of entrepreneurs might feel, actually, because a lot of our favorite entrepreneurs are Do seem to be able to share a lot, right, when they get on Guy's show, but they've already made their billion …”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 27:03
Insight
Aarons-Mele: Feelings of anxiety do not reflect factual reality
“And that helped me build so much resilience because I learned, like, just because I feel this way doesn't mean it's true.”
Morra Aarons-Mele Dec 23, 2020 ▶ 30:34
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