May 3, 2021 · 1h 10m · how-i-built-this
Eleven Madison Park: Daniel Humm
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of NPR's How I Built This, chef Daniel Humm details his journey from an ambitious Swiss school dropout and cyclist to the helm of Eleven Madison Park, culminating in his daring post-pandemic decision to transform the world-renowned institution into a fully plant-based restaurant dedicated to social impact.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 34.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 4.1 Guest teaching 2.3 Guest disagreement 0.3 Guy pushing back 0.6
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 46:05 Rejecting the 'World's Best Restaurant' concept
Humm bluntly dismisses the validity of the award that made him famous, pointing out that claiming any restaurant is objectively the best is ridiculous.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 56:05 Guy Raz confronts the exclusivity of fine diningRaz directly challenges Humm, pointing out without euphemism that he had spent his entire career cooking solely for wealthy elites.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:08:05 Defining passion through German etymologyHumm breaks down the German term Leidenschaft to educate Raz on how true passion involves a willingness to suffer rather than casual enthusiasm.
Guy holds their own ▶ 34:14 Raz clarifies critical rating systemsRaz intervenes with precise domain knowledge to distinguish Michelin's three-star ceiling from the New York Times four-star scale.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Preview: Financial Turmoil at Eleven Madison Park | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Host sets up the premise of the episode with a detailed monologue covering Daniel Humm's career, Michelin achievements, and the upcoming pivot to a plant-based menu. | |
| Childhood in Zurich, Family Dynamics, and Cycling | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Humm details his early life in Switzerland, his strained relationship with his father, and leaving school at 14 to pursue cycling. | |
| First Kitchen Mentorship, Accident, and Culinary Rebirth | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Humm discusses his transition from cycling to cooking after a severe crash at age 22, finding a new competitive craft in the kitchen. | |
| Rigorous European Apprenticeship and Visual Dish Journaling | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Humm explains the harsh hierarchy of European fine dining kitchens and his practice of drawing every dish in a colored-pencil journal to master the fundamentals. | |
| First Executive Chef Role and Unexpected Michelin Star | 4 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Humm describes earning his first Michelin star within six months at a Swiss inn, leading to overwhelming pressure and occasional temper flares. | |
| Relocating to San Francisco and Acclaim at Campton Place | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Raz notes influential critical praise in San Francisco while Humm recounts the relentless workload and culture shock at Campton Place. | |
| Danny Meyer's Recruitment to Eleven Madison Park | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Humm recounts Danny Meyer's 10-month pursuit to recruit him and the daunting scale of taking over a 200-seat brasserie in New York. | |
| Reinventing Eleven Madison Park Through Miles Davis | 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Humm explains how a review mentioning Miles Davis inspired an institutional philosophy based on 11 defining words like cool and endless reinvention. | |
| Surviving the 2008 Recession and Winning Four Stars | 5 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Raz clarifies the difference between Michelin and New York Times star ratings while Humm explains surviving the 2008 recession and packing the room for Frank Bruni. | |
| Defining a Culinary Language: Four Fundamentals of Cuisine | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Humm gently rejects the simple label of food as modern art, detailing his four core culinary pillars: delicious, beautiful, creative, and intentional. | |
| Buying Out Danny Meyer and Business Expansion Strain | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Humm walk through the buyout of Danny Meyer and the operational divergence between Humm and business partner Will Guidara. | |
| Reaching World Number One and Dissolving the Partnership | 4 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Humm reflects on reaching #1 on the World's 50 Best list and discovering that it caused anxiety rather than fulfillment, culminating in the split with Guidara. | |
| Pandemic Relief: One Million Meals and Renewed Purpose | 4 | 3 | 1 | 4 | Raz candidly pushes Humm on whether cooking for the ultra-wealthy had felt empty compared to serving one million pandemic relief meals. | |
| Pioneering a Fully Plant-Based Fine Dining Experience | 5 | 4 | 1 | 3 | Raz questions the operational risk of eliminating meat and dairy, while Humm explains the technical mastery required to make plant-based dishes shine. | |
| Reflections on Limitless Ambition, Resilience, and Passion | 5 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Humm conclude with the childhood paper drawing metaphor and the linguistic meaning of passion as Leidenschaft (the willingness to suffer). |
Statements from this episode (18)
Humm Dropped Out of School at 14 to Cycle Professionally
“When I was 14 years old, I had the opportunity to join a team and actually to really pursue it as a professional career and sort of leave school behind.”
Daniel Humm Still Designs Dishes by Hand-Sketching on Paper
“I have thousands of these still today, it's actually, I still work like this.”
Humm Earned His First Michelin Star After Six Months as Head Chef
“So quickly that after six months I was named discovery of the year and received a Michelin star.”
Yelling in the Kitchen Is a Sign of Weakness
“I always feel that when a chef is loud and yelling, it means that he's overwhelmed, and it's a weakness, absolute weakness”
New York Showed No Mercy to Gordon Ramsay or Alain Ducasse
“I mean, look at Alain Ducasse, I think Robichon, really, Gordon Ramsay, some of the biggest chefs came to New York and failed, and the city was done with them, and they never got a second chance.”
Wealthy Investors' Passion Project Restaurants Never Survive
“A lot of people try to allure you with this very wealthy guy who wants to have this restaurant, and it's sort of like his passion project. These things never, ever, ever work out because people get bored of it. It only works if it makes money.”
Hospitality Drives Repeat Diners Much More Than the Food
“I think hospitality is arguably more important than even the food. I think the food maybe brings the guests to the restaurant, but then the hospitality makes Makes the guest return and return.”
Eleven Madison Park Survived Nights With Only Four Guests in 2008
“Like we had so many meetings in those six months where we said, hey, we lost money every month, like huge amounts. I mean, we had nights where we had four guests. In the restaurant.”
Humm Packed the Dining Room With Friends for the NYT Critic
“So on nights that we thought he would come, we would invite a bunch of people, friends, regular guests. So the restaurant felt full when he came.”
EMP Never Had an Empty Seat After Its NYT Review
“The review came out, and it was a glowing review, and we never had an empty seat since that day.”
Minimalist Cooking Leaves No Room to Hide Mistakes
“It's easier to add things, but if you only have two things on the plate, then everything has to be perfect.”
Business Success Can Make Culinary Work Less Satisfying
“When you're starting to be pulled in a lot of different directions, it's harder to measure your accomplishments, and so in a way, it's less satisfying as a chef when you start having more success, you know, you're doing interviews, and you're talking to guests…”
Business Expansion Caused the Famous Humm and Guidara Split
“I think in our partnership also with Will, this is kind of when things started to be where we didn't Always see eye to eye. And I felt like a lot of these opportunities were taking my time away from the things that I really wanted to do. And so I felt that whe…”
Naming One Restaurant the World's Best Is Ridiculous
“I mean, it's kind of ridiculous to say that there is a best restaurant in the world. There isn't. There are many”
EMP Cooked Over One Million Relief Meals During the Pandemic
“We've cooked over one million meals out of the kitchen of 11 Madison Park since March.”
Eleven Madison Park Prepared for Bankruptcy During the Pandemic
“We faced bankruptcy. You know, we had engaged bankruptcy lawyers to understand what that means, what that would look like.”
Eleven Madison Park Decided to Reopen as 100% Plant-Based
“So we decided that our restaurant will be a hundred percent plant-based.”
Cooking Vegetables Requires Much More Creativity Than Meat
“To really see the creativity of a chef is by watching them work with vegetables. If you have a carrot and you want to make that into a meal, it's not so clear what direction you're going to go. It definitely requires more thought, more preparation, more organi…”