Dec 26, 2022 · 1h 7m · how-i-built-this
I.R.S. Records: Miles Copeland
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This, legendary music executive Miles Copeland recounts how he launched I.R.S. Records and shepherded iconic acts like The Police, The Go-Go's, and R.E.M. through daring negotiating tactics, family partnerships, and innovative guerrilla marketing.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 33.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 5.6 Guest teaching 1.9 Guest disagreement 1.0 Guy pushing back 0.3
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 42:35 Copeland pushes back on whether music executives must be SOBs
When Raz asks if running a label requires being an SOB to fend off sharks, Copeland rejects the binary framing, pointing out that artists and staff naturally demand more money as soon as success arrives.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 41:59 Guy Raz presses Copeland on industry ruthlessnessRaz directly challenges Copeland on whether succeeding as an independent label boss against predatory major labels required ruthless, tough negotiator tactics.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 24:07 Copeland corrects Raz regarding the founding of The PoliceCopeland corrects Raz's assumption that Stewart and Sting co-founded The Police, stating firmly that Stewart founded the band alone and recruited Sting, who initially hated punk.
Guy holds their own ▶ 1:08 Raz breaks down modern streaming economics versus 1980s record profitsRaz delivers an articulate monologue citing specific upload volumes and streaming payout fractions to contrast modern music economics with the lucrative 1980s model.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Prologue: The Zero-Risk Pitch to A&M | 6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Guy Raz sets up the episode with an in-depth prologue analyzing music industry economics, the shift to streaming, and Miles Copeland's pivotal role in launching The Police and I.R.S. Records. Copeland only appears briefly in an introductory soundbite. | |
| Beirut Upbringing and Early Campus Concert Promotions | 5 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Raz asks detailed biographical questions about Copeland's upbringing in Beirut and his accidental entrance into campus concert promotions. Copeland explains how he booked his brother's high school band and staged a San Francisco-style happening without drugs. | |
| Relocation to London and Managing Wishbone Ash | 5 | 3 | 2 | 0 | Raz questions Copeland about managing Rupert's People and Wishbone Ash in London, noting Wishbone Ash's prog-rock status. Copeland gently corrects Raz on Wishbone Ash's true commercial scale, describing them as moderately successful rather than massive. | |
| Expanding Management Roster and Publishing College Event | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Raz demonstrates strong preparation by detailing Copeland's covert trade magazine College Event. Copeland elaborates on how he weaponized his American accent and a student editor to build cheap marketing credibility for his roster. | |
| The Star Truckin' '75 Tour and Financial Collapse | 5 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Raz probes the financial disaster of the 1975 Star Truckin' European tour. Copeland explains Lou Reed's no-show in Spain, subsequent promoter pay cuts, and how he negotiated 50-cent settlements with creditors to avoid formal bankruptcy. | |
| The London Punk Scene and Dryden Chambers | 5 | 3 | 1 | 0 | Raz asks how Copeland rebuilt his career inside Dryden Chambers alongside Malcolm McLaren during the punk explosion. Copeland explains booking the Sex Pistols in Holland and stepping in with The Police as a fill-in act for unreliable punk bands. | |
| The Police Recording Sessions and Hearing Roxanne | 5 | 3 | 2 | 0 | Copeland corrects Raz's assumption that Stewart co-founded The Police, specifying that Stewart founded the band alone and recruited Sting and Henry Padovani. He narrates the pivotal Leatherhead recording session where he first heard Roxanne. | |
| Securing the A&M Deal and Breaking The Police in America | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Copeland discuss the zero-risk A&M pitch and the grassroots US tour booked by Ian Copeland. Copeland explains how four attendees in northern New York, including a Boston DJ, ignited US radio airplay and caught Jerry Moss's attention. | |
| The Inception of I.R.S. Records and Moving to Los Angeles | 6 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Raz clarifies the joint venture structure of I.R.S. Records with A&M and questions why Copeland did not remain independent. Copeland explains the high overhead of US record distribution and his philosophy of making deals irresistible. | |
| The Go-Go's Phenomenon and Early Eighties Record Economics | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Raz discusses The Go-Go's historic milestone as the first all-female band with a Billboard number-one album. Copeland describes other labels rejecting them, writing them a million-dollar renegotiation check, and the band dissolving after three albums. | |
| Bidding Wars, Peak Success in 1984, and Family Ties | 6 | 2 | 2 | 2 | Raz asks whether Copeland had to be an SOB to survive industry sharks and bidding wars. Copeland candidly recounts advising R.E.M. to take Warner Brothers' doubled offer and reflects on his complex family dynamics with Stewart. | |
| Transitioning from A&M to MCA Records | 5 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Raz explores Copeland's regret over leaving A&M for MCA in 1985. Copeland explains that an insulting buyout offer from Jerry Moss caused him to walk away, realizing in hindsight that partnership loyalty mattered more than per-unit margin. | |
| Overhead Pressures and Selling I.R.S. Records to EMI | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Raz references Sub Pop's experience to highlight how escalating overhead and bidding wars squeezed independent labels. Copeland confirms that ballooning staff costs and lower distributor support forced risky signings and the 1994 sale to EMI. | |
| Managing Sting Solo and the Jaguar Desert Rose Campaign | 6 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Copeland recount the ingenious commercial partnership for Sting's 'Desert Rose'. Copeland explains turning the music video into an eighteen-million-dollar Jaguar ad campaign that forced Universal to release the single on US radio. | |
| Business Philosophy, Unlucky Label Retrospective, and Reflections | 6 | 2 | 1 | 1 | Raz questions Copeland on his worldview of assuming the worst in people and his description of I.R.S. as unlucky. Copeland clarifies that expecting turbulence protects entrepreneurs from naivety, noting R.E.M. was his only act to reach five albums. |
Statements from this episode (18)
Copeland used his American accent to project authority when booking UK clubs
“I think one of the advantages that I had was I had an American accent. So when I'd call up a club, you know, it'd be, hi, my name is Miles Copeland, I've got this new band to book, you know, and They would not be quite so sure as to who this guy was. Well, may…”
Copeland: College Event succeeded because no direct UK competitor existed
“And actually the magazine kind of took off, because unbeknownst to me, there was literally nothing like it. So a lot of the agents and everybody began to take advantage of it because now they could advertise for, you know, 52 cents and reach who they wanted to…”
Copeland: Billing emerging artists with major headliners inflates their perceived status
“The idea of the tour was if you could associate your up-and-coming artists with bigger names, then people would assume your artists were bigger than they really were.”
Copeland avoided bankruptcy by negotiating a 50 percent payout over two years
“I went to all the people I owed money to, and I said, look, if you bankrupt me, you know what's going to happen. You know, it'll go to the courts, and you'll end up with one penny for every pound that you're owed, if that. But if you give me a couple of years,…”
Copeland: The Police originated as last-minute fill-ins for punk bands
“So the police ended up being a fill-in act for a lot of the punk groups.”
The Police recorded their debut album for £1,000 in a doctor's studio
“And he said, look, I've got this studio I've built in the back of my medical practice, and I'll give you a month in the studio for a thousand pounds. So I said to Stuart, how about let's make a police album? So I became effectively the record company. So the p…”
Copeland traded The Police's master recording for A&M's highest royalty rate
“It's free. You've got it. Just pay me the highest royalty A&M page if it sells. If it doesn't sell, no skin off your nose, no skin off my nose. The record's yours.”
Copeland: Spotify generates real revenue for artists through sheer streaming volume
“Spotify now, because there's billions of people who have signed on to it, that zero, zero, zero, one cent times X billion actually is real money. So you can make money now with having, being on some of these platforms.”
Copeland paid early employee Jay Boberg $100 weekly plus 25 percent equity
“I'm going to pay you a hundred bucks a week, which was a joke. But I'll give you five percent of the record company each year you stay with the company for the first five years. So Jay ended up with 25% of the label.”
Copeland: The Go-Go's remain the only female rock band with a #1 album
“Well, they remain the only female rock band to ever have a number one record on the Billboard charts. There've been plenty of singles that were number one, but never an album.”
Miles Copeland: There is no loyalty in the record business
“As somebody once said to me, if you want loyalty, get a dog, because there is no such thing in the record business, you know, because everybody has, starts whispering in their ear, you could make a lot more money if you were so-and-so.”
Warner Bros. outbid I.R.S. Records' $6 million offer to sign R.E.M.
“Jerry Moss and he says, well, I'll contribute you three million. And I was putting up three million. Anyway, I say to the group, this is what we'll offer. And it ended up between us and Warner Brothers. And then the manager and the lawyer come to me and they s…”
Jerry Moss refused to offer A&M equity to acquire I.R.S. Records
“Jerry Moss, I wanted to merge with A&M and get shares in A&M. And Jerry Moss had said initially, yes, we'll do that. Then when I went in to finally make the deal, he said, well, we can't give you shares in A&M, but we'll buy IRS. And he quoted a number which w…”
Copeland: Escalating talent costs and bidding wars ultimately killed I.R.S. Records
“Yes, that is exactly what happened to IRS records, which meant that the money I had to offer to sign the act had to increase, which meant the risks increased, and I think in the end it finally killed IRS.”
Copeland acquired foreign-language acts cheaply because the American market undervalued them
“World music was not considered a big music. You know, acts that sang in foreign language were not doing well in America. So you could pick up a lot of these acts for very little money. So a lot of the acts that I would sign later on in life were acts that were…”
Jaguar committed an $18 million ad budget to Sting's 'Desert Rose' video
“I had asked Jaguar what they were going to spend on putting out that video. So they gave me the advertising schedule. Eighteen million dollars. Including an ad on the Super Bowl.”