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Feb 2, 2026 · 55m · how-i-built-this

HOKA: Jean-Luc Diard and Nicolas Mermoud. The “Clown Shoe” That Became a $2B Bonanza

Guy Raz · 19m spoken Jean-Luc Diard · 17m spoken Nicolas Mermoud · 12m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of *How I Built This*, host Guy Raz interviews Hoka co-founders Jean-Luc Diard and Nicolas Mermoud about how they applied alpine engineering principles to disrupt minimalist footwear trends. By pairing oversized rocker midsoles with grassroots trial marketing and a strategic Deckers acquisition, they turned an initially mocked 'clown shoe' into a multi-billion-dollar athletic powerhouse.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 40.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 3.7 Guest teaching 2.9 Guest disagreement 0.7 Guy pushing back 0.3
05100:0015:0030:0045:004:47–7:38 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Jean-Luc’s Formative Years at Salomon Guy Raz demonstrates strong background knowledge of Salomon's corporate history and ski binding origins. Jean-Luc Diard explains how Georges Salomon mentored him and how bindings and skis were integrated into a single system.7:39–12:20 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Nicolas Joins Salomon and Company Growth Guy prompts Nicolas on his first day at Salomon and Jean-Luc on revenue milestones. The guests reflect collaboratively on French mountain culture and product innovation.12:20–14:54 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Recognizing the 'Oversized and Lighter' Revolution Raz and Diard bounce examples back and forth about the mid-2000s trend toward oversized and lighter sporting gear in golf, mountain biking, and skiing.14:54–20:04 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Nicolas’s UTMB Collapse and Downhill Epiphany Nicolas recounts his physical collapse during the UTMB ultra-marathon. He gently corrects Guy's premise regarding downhill brain-muscle signaling by pointing out that the legs force the brain to stop via acute muscle damage.20:05–23:45 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Founding the Annecy Workshop and Taking the Risk Raz probes the psychological and financial risks of leaving an established executive role. Jean-Luc details self-funding constraints and initial supplier relationships.23:46–33:02 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Mid-Roll Musical Interlude Guy questions the mechanics of rocker soles and bucket seat midsoles, comparing them to MBT footwear. The founders elaborate on creating a low-density, wide platform.33:03–38:36 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Trial Runs and Racing in 'Clown Shoes' Nicolas humorously shares how competing in giant clown shoes surprised traditional minimalist runners and dramatically reduced post-race recovery time.38:42–46:40 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Mid-Roll Break: Operational Bottlenecks Guy articulates the classic working capital trap of rapid growth. Jean-Luc pushes back on the utility of standard VC money, noting capital cannot fix factory capacity limits or substitute for hands-on shoe trials.46:40–52:10 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Deckers Acquisition and Mainstream Explosion Guy clarifies the equity acquisition structure with Deckers. Jean-Luc clarifies their tactical retail rollout, emphasizing specialty running stores over big-box retailers like REI.4:47–7:38 · Guest teaching 3/10 Jean-Luc’s Formative Years at Salomon Guy Raz demonstrates strong background knowledge of Salomon's corporate history and ski binding origins. Jean-Luc Diard explains how Georges Salomon mentored him and how bindings and skis were integrated into a single system.7:39–12:20 · Guest teaching 2/10 Nicolas Joins Salomon and Company Growth Guy prompts Nicolas on his first day at Salomon and Jean-Luc on revenue milestones. The guests reflect collaboratively on French mountain culture and product innovation.12:20–14:54 · Guest teaching 3/10 Recognizing the 'Oversized and Lighter' Revolution Raz and Diard bounce examples back and forth about the mid-2000s trend toward oversized and lighter sporting gear in golf, mountain biking, and skiing.14:54–20:04 · Guest teaching 4/10 Nicolas’s UTMB Collapse and Downhill Epiphany Nicolas recounts his physical collapse during the UTMB ultra-marathon. He gently corrects Guy's premise regarding downhill brain-muscle signaling by pointing out that the legs force the brain to stop via acute muscle damage.20:05–23:45 · Guest teaching 2/10 Founding the Annecy Workshop and Taking the Risk Raz probes the psychological and financial risks of leaving an established executive role. Jean-Luc details self-funding constraints and initial supplier relationships.23:46–33:02 · Guest teaching 3/10 Mid-Roll Musical Interlude Guy questions the mechanics of rocker soles and bucket seat midsoles, comparing them to MBT footwear. The founders elaborate on creating a low-density, wide platform.33:03–38:36 · Guest teaching 2/10 Trial Runs and Racing in 'Clown Shoes' Nicolas humorously shares how competing in giant clown shoes surprised traditional minimalist runners and dramatically reduced post-race recovery time.38:42–46:40 · Guest teaching 4/10 Mid-Roll Break: Operational Bottlenecks Guy articulates the classic working capital trap of rapid growth. Jean-Luc pushes back on the utility of standard VC money, noting capital cannot fix factory capacity limits or substitute for hands-on shoe trials.46:40–52:10 · Guest teaching 3/10 Deckers Acquisition and Mainstream Explosion Guy clarifies the equity acquisition structure with Deckers. Jean-Luc clarifies their tactical retail rollout, emphasizing specialty running stores over big-box retailers like REI.4:47–7:38 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Jean-Luc’s Formative Years at Salomon Guy Raz demonstrates strong background knowledge of Salomon's corporate history and ski binding origins. Jean-Luc Diard explains how Georges Salomon mentored him and how bindings and skis were integrated into a single system.7:39–12:20 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Nicolas Joins Salomon and Company Growth Guy prompts Nicolas on his first day at Salomon and Jean-Luc on revenue milestones. The guests reflect collaboratively on French mountain culture and product innovation.12:20–14:54 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Recognizing the 'Oversized and Lighter' Revolution Raz and Diard bounce examples back and forth about the mid-2000s trend toward oversized and lighter sporting gear in golf, mountain biking, and skiing.14:54–20:04 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Nicolas’s UTMB Collapse and Downhill Epiphany Nicolas recounts his physical collapse during the UTMB ultra-marathon. He gently corrects Guy's premise regarding downhill brain-muscle signaling by pointing out that the legs force the brain to stop via acute muscle damage.20:05–23:45 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Founding the Annecy Workshop and Taking the Risk Raz probes the psychological and financial risks of leaving an established executive role. Jean-Luc details self-funding constraints and initial supplier relationships.23:46–33:02 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Mid-Roll Musical Interlude Guy questions the mechanics of rocker soles and bucket seat midsoles, comparing them to MBT footwear. The founders elaborate on creating a low-density, wide platform.33:03–38:36 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Trial Runs and Racing in 'Clown Shoes' Nicolas humorously shares how competing in giant clown shoes surprised traditional minimalist runners and dramatically reduced post-race recovery time.38:42–46:40 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Mid-Roll Break: Operational Bottlenecks Guy articulates the classic working capital trap of rapid growth. Jean-Luc pushes back on the utility of standard VC money, noting capital cannot fix factory capacity limits or substitute for hands-on shoe trials.46:40–52:10 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Deckers Acquisition and Mainstream Explosion Guy clarifies the equity acquisition structure with Deckers. Jean-Luc clarifies their tactical retail rollout, emphasizing specialty running stores over big-box retailers like REI.4:47–7:38 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Jean-Luc’s Formative Years at Salomon Guy Raz demonstrates strong background knowledge of Salomon's corporate history and ski binding origins. Jean-Luc Diard explains how Georges Salomon mentored him and how bindings and skis were integrated into a single system.7:39–12:20 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Nicolas Joins Salomon and Company Growth Guy prompts Nicolas on his first day at Salomon and Jean-Luc on revenue milestones. The guests reflect collaboratively on French mountain culture and product innovation.12:20–14:54 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Recognizing the 'Oversized and Lighter' Revolution Raz and Diard bounce examples back and forth about the mid-2000s trend toward oversized and lighter sporting gear in golf, mountain biking, and skiing.14:54–20:04 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Nicolas’s UTMB Collapse and Downhill Epiphany Nicolas recounts his physical collapse during the UTMB ultra-marathon. He gently corrects Guy's premise regarding downhill brain-muscle signaling by pointing out that the legs force the brain to stop via acute muscle damage.20:05–23:45 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Founding the Annecy Workshop and Taking the Risk Raz probes the psychological and financial risks of leaving an established executive role. Jean-Luc details self-funding constraints and initial supplier relationships.23:46–33:02 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Mid-Roll Musical Interlude Guy questions the mechanics of rocker soles and bucket seat midsoles, comparing them to MBT footwear. The founders elaborate on creating a low-density, wide platform.33:03–38:36 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Trial Runs and Racing in 'Clown Shoes' Nicolas humorously shares how competing in giant clown shoes surprised traditional minimalist runners and dramatically reduced post-race recovery time.38:42–46:40 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Mid-Roll Break: Operational Bottlenecks Guy articulates the classic working capital trap of rapid growth. Jean-Luc pushes back on the utility of standard VC money, noting capital cannot fix factory capacity limits or substitute for hands-on shoe trials.46:40–52:10 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Deckers Acquisition and Mainstream Explosion Guy clarifies the equity acquisition structure with Deckers. Jean-Luc clarifies their tactical retail rollout, emphasizing specialty running stores over big-box retailers like REI.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 83.2% · guest 16.8%0:00 · Guy 83.2% · guest 16.8%3:00 · Guy 60.5% · guest 39.5%3:00 · Guy 60.5% · guest 39.5%6:00 · Guy 48.1% · guest 51.9%6:00 · Guy 48.1% · guest 51.9%9:00 · Guy 26.5% · guest 73.5%9:00 · Guy 26.5% · guest 73.5%12:00 · Guy 37.4% · guest 62.6%12:00 · Guy 37.4% · guest 62.6%15:00 · Guy 46.3% · guest 53.7%15:00 · Guy 46.3% · guest 53.7%18:00 · Guy 40.2% · guest 59.8%18:00 · Guy 40.2% · guest 59.8%21:00 · Guy 31.8% · guest 68.2%21:00 · Guy 31.8% · guest 68.2%24:00 · Guy 38.9% · guest 61.1%24:00 · Guy 38.9% · guest 61.1%27:00 · Guy 24.1% · guest 75.9%27:00 · Guy 24.1% · guest 75.9%30:00 · Guy 28% · guest 72%30:00 · Guy 28% · guest 72%33:00 · Guy 25.3% · guest 74.7%33:00 · Guy 25.3% · guest 74.7%36:00 · Guy 53% · guest 47%36:00 · Guy 53% · guest 47%39:00 · Guy 35.8% · guest 64.2%39:00 · Guy 35.8% · guest 64.2%42:00 · Guy 29.8% · guest 70.2%42:00 · Guy 29.8% · guest 70.2%45:00 · Guy 43.8% · guest 56.2%45:00 · Guy 43.8% · guest 56.2%48:00 · Guy 27.7% · guest 72.3%48:00 · Guy 27.7% · guest 72.3%51:00 · Guy 29.2% · guest 70.8%51:00 · Guy 29.2% · guest 70.8%54:00 · Guy 69.6% · guest 30.4%54:00 · Guy 69.6% · guest 30.4%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 44:45 Jean-Luc dismisses standard venture capital utility

Jean-Luc rejects the host's premise that raising VC money was the missing solution, arguing money alone does not solve factory capacity allocations or get runners to physically test shoes.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 48:34 Guy clarifies the acquisition vs minority investment structure

Guy presses to clarify whether the initial deal with Deckers was an outright buyout or a phased minority investment.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 17:31 Nicolas corrects downhill biomechanical feedback

When Guy suggests the runner's brain commands failing legs to move, Nicolas reframes the physiology, explaining the damaged quads command the brain to halt via pain.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 44:23 Guy analyzes fast-growth cash-flow failure modes

Guy demonstrates financial fluency by laying out how hyper-growth working capital demands routinely bankrupt underfinanced consumer goods startups.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Jean-Luc’s Formative Years at Salomon 4300 Guy Raz demonstrates strong background knowledge of Salomon's corporate history and ski binding origins. Jean-Luc Diard explains how Georges Salomon mentored him and how bindings and skis were integrated into a single system.
Nicolas Joins Salomon and Company Growth 4200 Guy prompts Nicolas on his first day at Salomon and Jean-Luc on revenue milestones. The guests reflect collaboratively on French mountain culture and product innovation.
Recognizing the 'Oversized and Lighter' Revolution 4300 Raz and Diard bounce examples back and forth about the mid-2000s trend toward oversized and lighter sporting gear in golf, mountain biking, and skiing.
Nicolas’s UTMB Collapse and Downhill Epiphany 3410 Nicolas recounts his physical collapse during the UTMB ultra-marathon. He gently corrects Guy's premise regarding downhill brain-muscle signaling by pointing out that the legs force the brain to stop via acute muscle damage.
Founding the Annecy Workshop and Taking the Risk 3200 Raz probes the psychological and financial risks of leaving an established executive role. Jean-Luc details self-funding constraints and initial supplier relationships.
Mid-Roll Musical Interlude 4311 Guy questions the mechanics of rocker soles and bucket seat midsoles, comparing them to MBT footwear. The founders elaborate on creating a low-density, wide platform.
Trial Runs and Racing in 'Clown Shoes' 3210 Nicolas humorously shares how competing in giant clown shoes surprised traditional minimalist runners and dramatically reduced post-race recovery time.
Mid-Roll Break: Operational Bottlenecks 4421 Guy articulates the classic working capital trap of rapid growth. Jean-Luc pushes back on the utility of standard VC money, noting capital cannot fix factory capacity limits or substitute for hands-on shoe trials.
Deckers Acquisition and Mainstream Explosion 4311 Guy clarifies the equity acquisition structure with Deckers. Jean-Luc clarifies their tactical retail rollout, emphasizing specialty running stores over big-box retailers like REI.

Statements from this episode (12)

Disclosure
Mermoud: Hoka co-founders were 'lazy' and not serious runners before founding
“It's a legend that we were serious, enthusiastic runners before hockey. We were lazy because it was so hard and one step at a time compared to anything else we would do.”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 19:36
Insight
Diard: Founders must set strict family investment limits against 80% failure odds
“The second thing is that you know that those adventurers have 80% plus chances of failure. So you just take that into account. And then the other thing is to fix boundaries when it comes to the investments that you are going to do. So here you need to be very …”
Jean-Luc Diard Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 21:29
Insight
Diard: Material suppliers, not footwear brands, are the real industry innovators
“In footwear, the innovators are also the suppliers. They are the people who are providing you with The foam formulations with the different materials, etc.”
Jean-Luc Diard Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 22:52
Assertion Partly supported
Diard: Hoka midsoles were twice as soft as industry standards
“And we went like pretty much twice softer than what was the tradition in the industry.”
Jean-Luc Diard Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 29:53
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mermoud: Early Hoka prototypes cut downhill times by 10 seconds per minute
“We got like the, some timing. We started timing ourselves, and we were like 10 seconds off of a minute.”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 34:01
Assertion Supported
Mermoud: Hoka prototypes secured their first race victory at Montagnard
“I could race one week later, and win something called Montagnard. Yeah. It was the first ever victory in the Hawkeyes.”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 37:04
Insight
Mermoud: Unconventional products need immediate racing validation to avoid gimmick status
“Because when you have something weird, which feels weird and looks weird, if you don't want it to be perceived as a gimmick, you need performance in racing validation, like almost immediately.”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 41:21
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Mermoud: By July 2010, nervous competitors began buying up Hoka retail stock
“In, in the summer of 2010 very early summer, like around this month of July after we had delivered like about 3000 pairs of shoes. We knew that we needed to accelerate because there was nervousness because some shoes were getting shipped, especially by a coupl…”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 45:57
Insight
Diard: Patent protection is ultimately a matter of who has more money
“Patents are always a matter of who has the biggest amount of money.”
Jean-Luc Diard Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 46:34
Opinion
Mermoud: French VCs would not have offered operational support like Deckers
“Any French VC or would never, not have brought that to the table.”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 47:54
Disclosure
Diard: Hoka's original grand vision was merely to become a $500M company
“The vision that we had was to become a five hundred million company.”
Jean-Luc Diard Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 51:25
Opinion
Mermoud: Cushioning technology drove trail running's boom by protecting downhill runners
“I think it also beyond the running shoes, these new technologies created appetite for the sport of running. So the trail running is booming. It's amazing. It's a very fast growing sport today, but people are not afraid like before to run downhill. They don't c…”
Nicolas Mermoud Feb 2, 2026 ▶ 52:59
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