Aug 31, 2026 · 1h 20m · how-i-built-this
Late July Snacks: Nicole Bernard Dawes. Crackers and Cookies were Failing… Tortilla Chips Saved Them
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In this episode of How I Built This, Nicole Bernard Dawes shares how she overcame catastrophic debt, family tragedy, and early product failures to transform Late July Snacks into a $100 million organic powerhouse before launching Nixie Beverage Company. The interview documents her journey proving that certified organic foods can match conventional market leaders in mainstream flavor appeal.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 34.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 3.8 Guest teaching 4.0 Guest disagreement 1.4 Guy pushing back 1.9
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 4:38 Pushback against Guy's chip texture theory
Nicole directly contradicts Guy's assumption that the early chips failed because of starch and crispiness issues, insisting the chips tasted great and that poor retail location was the true issue.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 43:36 Guy questions revealing insolvency to a reporterGuy openly challenges Nicole's decision to disclose severe loan default and financial straits to an Inc. Magazine writer, pointing out that founders usually conceal distress from media.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:03:30 M&A merger loophole bypasses buyback clauseNicole explains the legal technicality where Campbell's acquired Snyder's-Lance via a merger rather than a sale, nullifying Late July's contractual right to buy back their brand.
Guy holds their own ▶ 1:09:00 Guy details chemical flavor extraction vs whole fruitGuy demonstrates deep product-category domain knowledge by breaking down Spindrift's shelf-stable fruit juice process versus conventional sparkling water chemical solvent extraction.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The Origin and Fortuitous Accident of Cape Cod Potato Chips | 3 | 5 | 4 | 2 | Guy attempts to explain why the chips initially failed technically, but Nicole interrupts to correct his premise, stating the flavor was great and the issue was poor marketing and location. Guy readily accepts the correction and jokes about the car crash being earned media. | |
| Kettle Cooking Innovation and Childhood Influences on Taste | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Guy displays familiarity with food manufacturing and 1980s natural health food co-op history, contrasting carob chips and spelt flour with mainstream snacks. Nicole builds on his observations collaboratively, explaining her childhood motivation to make healthy food taste good. | |
| The Sale to Anheuser-Busch and Buying Cape Cod Back | 3 | 6 | 3 | 2 | Guy assumes Steve had to pay a steep markup to buy the brand back from Anheuser-Busch, but Nicole quickly corrects him by revealing the price was actually far lower because the distribution and manufacturing assets were gone. Guy is surprised and accepts her clarification. | |
| Reopening the Hyannis Plant and Becoming a Cape Cod Attraction | 4 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Guy questions the logistical logic of placing a factory in Hyannis on the Cape. Nicole humorously concedes there was no logistical advantage, noting it was simply close to where her father lived, though it created a major tourist destination. | |
| Second Sale to Lance and Setting Out to Start Late July | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Nicole details her transition from Cape Cod to inventing Late July crackers, including her initial failed snack mix concept. Guy questions why a snack mix was impossible, and Nicole explains the severe margin and production cost hurdles her father pointed out. | |
| The USDA Organic Seal and the Meaning Behind Late July | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Nicole explains the legal significance of the Organic Food Production Act and the USDA Organic Seal debut. Guy asks about initial capital and ingredient sourcing, and Nicole explains the extreme difficulty of securing certified organic cheese powder and flour in 2003. | |
| National Debut at Expo East and the Cracker Velocity Slump | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Guy drills into working capital cycles and cash flow strains after big trade show orders. Nicole clarifies that while production cash wasn't their blocker, shelf turnover velocity for crackers was severely lower than chips. | |
| Differentiating from Cape Cod and Overcoming Public Assumptions | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Guy asks why Nicole did not immediately pursue potato chips and probes public assumptions about her family's wealth. Nicole explains her desire not to compete with Cape Cod and clarifies that her father gave her autonomy rather than piles of cash. | |
| The Sandwich Cookie Experiment and Escalating Cost Pressures | 4 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Nicole describes launching premium sandwich cookies and realizing the unit economics were upside down. Guy asks about taking strategic investment from Snyder's-Lance, and Nicole explains why early strategic capital differs from venture capital timelines. | |
| The 2008 Recession and Steve Bernard's Terminal Diagnosis | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Nicole recounts the emotional and operational shock of the 2008 recession coinciding with cutting unprofitable product lines and her father's terminal cancer diagnosis. Guy listens supportively as she explains her refusal to contemplate failure. | |
| Steve's Passing, Wake Ambush, and Called Bank Loans | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Nicole explains how the bank used the death of a member clause to call in a 3.5 million dollar loan within 30 days of her father's passing. Guy steps in to define key man insurance and validate why lenders acted aggressively during the financial crisis. | |
| A Child's Allergy Crisis and Rallying the Team Amid Default | 4 | 3 | 1 | 3 | Nicole recalls her son's severe allergic reaction at the wake and rallying her employees under default. Guy pushes back on pure optimism, questioning how employees could believe the company would survive a 3.5 million dollar bank call in the middle of a credit freeze. | |
| Lifelines: Gary Hirshberg's Mentorship and RSF Finance | 4 | 4 | 2 | 5 | Guy expresses genuine disbelief that Nicole openly confessed her dire financial troubles to an Inc. Magazine reporter. Nicole explains that she felt Meg Hirshberg would be sympathetic due to Stonyfield's own history, which led directly to Gary Hirshberg's angel investment. | |
| The High-Stakes Pivot to Organic Tortilla Chips | 3 | 4 | 1 | 3 | Guy presses Nicole on why she pivoted to tortilla chips after six years in crackers, asking if it was a calculated opportunity or a desperate Hail Mary. Nicole admits it was effectively a Hail Mary necessitated by shedding two million dollars in cookie sales. | |
| Operational Burnout and Gary Hirshberg's Crucial Management Advice | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Nicole shares Gary Hirshberg's critical management advice about hiring operational leadership so her husband didn't have to live at the plant. She also recounts confronting an industry salesperson who was spreading rumors that Late July was finished. | |
| The Critical Stop & Shop Pitch and Overnight Success | 4 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy assumes making tortilla chips with a co-packer is relatively simple, but Nicole explains the complexity of custom organic seasonings. She then narrates her make-or-break pitch to Stop & Shop where the buyer approved the line on the spot. | |
| Mid-Show Break: Scaling to New Heights | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Guy recaps the dramatic revenue climb toward 100 million dollars and asks about organizational scaling. Nicole explains the counter-intuitive dynamics of brand momentum and notes that scaling from 50 million to 100 million was smoother than 10 to 50 million. | |
| Snyder's-Lance Increases Stake to 80% | 3 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy notes Nicole's ambivalence when Snyder's-Lance bought 80% of the company in 2014. Nicole explains that while she wanted to run the business forever, she felt an obligation to provide liquidity for early angel investors and her widowed mother. | |
| The Campbell Soup Acquisition and Farewell at Newport Folk Festival | 4 | 6 | 1 | 2 | Nicole explains that Campbell's acquisition of Snyder's-Lance bypassed their buyback clause because the transaction was structured as a merger rather than an outright sale. Guy remarks on the critical importance of contractual language in founder agreements. | |
| Dispelling Assumptions and Eyeing the Beverage Aisle | 4 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Guy asks Nicole if people assumed she walked away rich, and pushes back slightly by mentioning organic beverage competitors existed in 2018. Nicole clarifies that while organic tea and juice existed, sparkling water and sodas were entirely devoid of organic options. | |
| Founding Nixie Beverage and Navigating the COVID-19 Pandemic | 6 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy demonstrates detailed industry knowledge regarding sparkling water flavor extraction and how conventional brands use chemical solvents like hexane. Nicole explains her self-funding strategy for Nixie and the sudden supply shock of COVID-19. | |
| Expanding Nixie into Soda and Tackling Beverage Distribution | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Guy lists established competitors in sparkling water including LaCroix, Topo Chico, and Liquid Death, asking what makes beverage viable. Nicole explains that while sales velocity rules match snacks, direct-store distribution makes beverage far harder. | |
| Enduring Motivation, Company Culture, and Family Ties | 3 | 3 | 0 | 1 | Guy asks Nicole what drives her to keep working rather than retiring or golfing, and reflects on both Cape Cod and Late July now sitting under Campbell's. Nicole shares her emotional connection to seeing her products in grocery stores. | |
| Reflections on Luck, Privilege, and Relentless Grit | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks Nicole to weigh the balance between luck and grind. Nicole acknowledges the fortune of being raised in an entrepreneurial family, but emphasizes that survival during crises came purely from relentless grit. |
Statements from this episode (28)
Dawes: Cape Cod Potato Chips was saved by a storefront car crash
“You know, there was a few other factors that maybe weren't fully fleshed out, and the first year it almost went out of business. But unfortunately, a car came through the front of the business. The man has a heart attack. He drives his car through the front. I…”
Dawes: Early health food brands chose to make bad-tasting products
“Because I saw what my dad did, you know, I knew it was possible. You know, I knew that this was something, so it's like, to me, it was like businesses were making a choice to make these bad-tasting products.”
Dawes: Cape Cod Chips were repurchased for less than Anheuser-Busch paid
“No, it was actually much lower.”
Dawes: Cape Cod Potato Chips was bought back for under $3M
“I mean, I want, it was under three million. I don't remember exactly.”
Dawes: Cape Cod factory was Cape's second-biggest tourist attraction
“I mean, the only thing that was practical about it, maybe, was that we had a factory tour, and at the time, you know, when we reopened it and redid the factory tour, I mean, we were the second largest tourist attraction on the Cape after the National Seashore.”
Dawes: Crackers were neglected in natural foods despite huge conventional market
“And I went to the cracker section, and it was like, you almost had to, like, take a time machine into the section of the store. And I thought, that's a huge category in the conventional world. And, you know, nobody really seems to care about it in the natural …”
Dawes: Late July was among first to launch entirely with USDA Organic seal
“So late July launched with the USDA organic seal, and I mean, I think we were one of the first brands, if not the first brand, to have the entire brand launched that way.”
Dawes: Early Organic Industry Had Only Single Suppliers for Key Ingredients
“And, you know, what was so hard, though, is even though this great organic product Laws had passed. There was still no suppliers. So, I mean, there was maybe one supplier of flour, one supplier of cheese, one supplier. I mean, it was very hard.”
Nicole Dawes: Late July secured national Whole Foods distribution at debut
“We signed up Whole Foods nationally. We got two big distributors.”
Dawes: Consumers buy potato chips over crackers at a ten-to-one ratio
“You go through probably 10 to one bags of potato chips to boxes of crackers.”
Dawes: My career goal is making organic foods taste like conventional snacks
“I have built my entire career out of making organic and natural products, healthy organic natural products, taste like conventional ones.”
Nicole Bernard Dawes: Organic Food Movement Only Grows via Superior Taste
“The only way to help the organic food movement grow was to make delicious tasting products that people would like back into finding out about how They were made.”
Dawes: Food industry makes it hard for national brands without fast growth
“One of the things I think about the food business is it's very hard to be a national brand that isn't growing fast. It's just like our business isn't designed to support like slow, steady growth”
Dawes: Late July's sandwich cookies needed 3x higher pricing to work
“They should have been like three times as expensive as what we were charging for them.”
Dawes: Taking strategic investment usually leads to selling the company to them
“What I now realize in hindsight is whenever you take a strategic investment, whether or not you intend to sell them the business, you should expect that to be the outcome. And the earlier you can know that when you're negotiating, probably the better.”
Late July discontinued its $2 million cookie line due to lack of profitability
“We realized that the cookies were never going to be a profitable part of our business. It was two million dollars of our sales, but the right thing to do was to discontinue them.”
Dawes: Bank defaulted Late July's equipment loan after father's death
“So we had this large equipment loan, and at the time, you know, interest rates were so low that most banks were, like, kind of upside down in some of these, and we had a death of a member clause in our loan agreement, and we were an LLC, and my dad was a membe…”
Dawes: Founders taking on company debt must get key man insurance
“And, I mean, I tell everyone I talk to, like, if you get debt, get key man insurance.”
Nicole Bernard Dawes: Success requires category dominance or entering massive categories
“And I always feel like there's two ways to be successful. You can be a big part of a small category, or you have to be a smaller part of an enormous category.”
Dawes: Food brands struggle expanding across different grocery store categories
“No, it's very hard. It's a completely different part of the store. Sometimes it's different buyers. I mean, and usually it's very difficult for a brand to go into two different categories like that.”
Whole Foods Launched Kettle's Tia's Beside Late July, Favoring Tia's Displays
“Whole Foods decided, they said that they would give us a chance, but they launched us at the exact same time as Kettle decided to get into the tortilla chip business with a brand called Tia's. So Whole Foods launched us at the same time, but they gave Tia's al…”
Dawes: Scaling a brand from $10M to $50M is harder than reaching $100M
“I mean, the one thing that I know about building a brand is starting is not really the hard part, and even getting to a million dollars isn't really the hard part. It's really getting from, like, ten million to fifty million is probably the hardest part, and t…”
Dawes: Founders must provide early angel investors a path to exit
“And I think when you sign up to be an entrepreneur, you sign up. You don't necessarily get to bring those other people along with you, and that includes your family and friends or any early angel investors you have. You know, you have to be realistic about, ev…”
Dawes: Hirshberg structured Snyder's-Lance deal to retain board control
“Gary Hirshberg was a great mentor to us, and he helped us structure a deal that still effectively gave us control of the board, which allowed us to really still control our destiny. And at this point, we were profitable, you know, so, like, we were a good addi…”
Dawes: Late July Buyback Clause Was Bypassed by Snyder's Merger
“We did have a clause in our agreement that allowed us to buy it back in the event that Snyder's sold. But apparently they didn't sell. They merged.”
Dawes: Average consumers care little about organic sparkling water flavors
“But, you know, I don't think the average consumer cares nearly as much as I do about organic flavors and their sparkling water.”
Dawes: Founders should master product velocity before accepting outside investment
“What I think is the most important thing before you bring in any kind of investor is that you know your products. You know your best-selling products. You know you understand your velocity. Like, you know exactly what your product potential is, and so funding …”