Aug 23, 2024 · 48m · catalyst
Hunting for geologic hydrogen
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Host Shayle Kann and Koloma CEO Pete Johnson explore the science, economics, and commercial landscape of geologic hydrogen as an emerging primary energy source for global decarbonization.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 25.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 4.8 Guest disagreement 1.1 Shayle pushing back 2.1
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 24:30 Dismissing leakage concerns as counterproductive
Johnson firmly rejects the argument that hydrogen leakage justifies avoiding geologic hydrogen, calling that perspective cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 40:41 Demanding a sober reality check on unproven discoveriesKann explicitly insists on pouring cold water on market hype, reminding listeners that no company has publicly announced an appraised commercial reserve.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:25 Dissecting the geologic hurdles of natural hydrogenJohnson provides an in-depth breakdown of why hydrogen exploration differs fundamentally from petroleum, citing two-reactant hydrology, small molecular leakage, and microbial consumption.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 17:07 Reframing geologic hydrogen as primary energyKann articulates the core macroeconomic thesis that natural subsurface hydrogen converts hydrogen from an inefficient energy carrier into a primary energy source.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Koloma Investment Story and Sector Context | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Host monologue detailing his investment background in Koloma and introducing the episode premise. As a solo intro segment, host interactive scores are set to zero. | |
| The Science of Geologic Hydrogen Formation | 5 | 7 | 1 | 2 | Johnson details the chemical mechanisms of serpentinization and the three key physical challenges of subsurface hydrogen accumulation: two-reactant systems, small molecular seal requirements, and microbial preservation risk. | |
| Adapting Oil, Gas, and Mining Technologies | 7 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Kann highlights the core distinction between hydrogen as an energy carrier versus primary energy. Johnson builds on this with parasitic energy inputs and industrial crossover technologies. | |
| Assessing Hydrogen Leakage and Climate Impact | 6 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Kann questions the warming consequences of fugitive hydrogen emissions. Johnson explains indirect global warming potential via tropospheric hydroxyl radical depletion and contrasts historical industrial gas leakage rates with methane. | |
| Sponsor Messages: Bloom Energy, Engie, and Energy Hub | 6 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Following mid-roll sponsor reads, Kann and Johnson analyze the geographical disconnect between geologic deposits and heavy industry demand centers, comparing demand dynamics to historical Houston refining and Quebec hydropower. | |
| Current Exploration Activity and Defining Commercial Discovery | 6 | 6 | 2 | 4 | Kann pushes for clear criteria separating preliminary gas shows from commercial discoveries, drawing comparisons to fusion milestones. Johnson outlines multi-month production testing and multi-well appraisal requirements. | |
| Stimulated Hydrogen Generation in the Subsurface | 5 | 6 | 1 | 2 | Johnson outlines the technical and economic barriers of stimulated underground serpentinization, noting the thermal kinetics Goldilocks zone and the steep hurdle of capital recovery on deep horizontal wells. | |
| Managing Industry Hype and Episode Conclusion | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Kann and Johnson close by discussing how to manage public expectations and timeline realities without stifling legitimate enthusiasm for decarbonization potential. |
Statements from this episode (22)
Kann discloses EIP's investment in Koloma and his board seat
“So full disclosure we at EIP are investors in Coloma. I'm on Pete's board.”
Johnson: Serpentinization is the primary mechanism generating underground hydrogen
“Most people believe serpentinization is the main way that hydrogen forms under the ground, and look, we have hydrogen seeps have, that have been found and detected all over the planet.”
Johnson: Substantial natural hydrogen seeps emerge in Iceland and the mid-Atlantic
“We have hydrogen seeping out of the ground in the mid-Atlantic rift in the ocean, and that comes to the surface at Iceland, and there's a lot of hydrogen coming out of the ground in Iceland, so, so nobody questions that this reaction is happening over and over…”
Johnson: Underground helium traps prove geologic formations can seal hydrogen
“And the fact that we can find helium in traps and we find helium underground Tells you that there are sufficient traps and seals in nature that could hold a gas as small and light as hydrogen.”
Johnson: Microbes present a major preservation risk by consuming underground hydrogen
“If you get microbes into a hydrogen filled reservoir, that hydrogen will be gone. And so you have a preservation risk for hydrogen that you definitely wouldn't have for helium, which is, you know, no, nobody can metabolize that at all, but same with oil and ga…”
Johnson: Geologic hydrogen reservoirs take thousands of years to recharge
“The, this is still, you know, our view is it's still, you're talking about thousands of years. Oil and gas, you're talking about millions of years, and this you might be talking about thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. There are …”
Johnson: Mining companies understand geologic hydrogen source rocks best
“It's the mining companies that actually know the most about this type of hard rock that serves as a source rock for hydrogen.”
Johnson: Geologic hydrogen extraction costs should match natural gas extraction
“If you can find hydrogen under the ground, the reality is you should be able to produce it from a volumetric standpoint at a similar cost that we produce natural gas out of the ground.”
Johnson: Natural hydrogen and biogenic CO2 can reach aviation fuel parity
“You could even take, you know, natural hydrogen produced at optimized prices, combine that with biogenic CO two, and you could make kerosene for sustainable aviation fuel pretty darn close to cost parity to the kerosene that just comes out of oil refinery.”
Johnson: Green hydrogen electrolysis is at best roughly 60% energy efficient
“To electrolyze, to take renewable electricity and make a ton of hydrogen. Now that's totally green. You can do that carbon free. It's great in many ways, but you're going to put 50 to 55 megawatt hours of electricity into that system and pull out 33 megawatt h…”
Johnson: Natural hydrogen fields require just 1-3 MWh input per ton
“Our best estimates for a natural hydrogen field is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of one to three megawatt hours of energy in to pull a ton of hydrogen out. So that's one to three megawatt hours of parasitic costs of, you know, running compressors and …”
Johnson: The United States already has 1,600 miles of hydrogen pipelines
“We've been moving hydrogen through pipelines in this country for decades. There's 1600 miles of hydrogen pipelines”
Johnson: Industrial gas operators lose only 0.25% to 1% to leakage
“The best performers in industrial gas world, they lose about a quarter of a percent of their hydrogen from wellhead to customer delivery. The sort of the bottom quartile are around one percent.”
Johnson: Replacing methane power plants with hydrogen cuts emissions by 97%
“If we just said, okay, let's just assume you lose two percent methane, you lose two percent hydrogen. That means if I took that methane and I burned that in a power plant, or I took that hydrogen and I burned that in a power plant, and I'm losing the same amou…”
Johnson: Hydrogen accounts for 75% of ammonia production costs
“I mean, if you look at the economics on almost all these, 75% of the cost of ammonia is hydrogen.”
Johnson: USGS estimates geologic hydrogen resources could reach trillions of tons
“The USGS put out an estimate that this could be on the order of trillions of tons. You know, hundreds of years of energy.”
Johnson: A 1987 Mali well has produced high-purity hydrogen for decades
“There was a well drilled in 1987 in Mali, Africa, that was a water well that struck hydrogen and has been producing high purity hydrogen ever since. For, you know, for decades, and other wells have been drilled around that, and there, there's enough hydrogen p…”
Johnson: Koloma is actively exploring in over 10 US states
“We're active in over 10 states right now.”
Johnson: Approximately 50 to 60 companies are exploring for geologic hydrogen
“There's 50 or 60 companies working in the space, and, you know, I think most of them are pretty early in the game.”
Johnson: Commercial hydrogen discoveries require 10k-50k tons annually over decades
“If you want to produce liquid hydrogen, you got to be producing 10,000 tons per year, give or take. If you want to be, you know, producing ammonia, you know, you're probably in the neighborhood of like, 50,000 tons per year is a good amount of hydrogen. So I w…”