Dec 5, 2024 · 1h 42m · bigdeal
How to Persuade Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Influential | Expert Magician
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Master magician and entrepreneur Alex Ramon joins Codie Sanchez to reveal the psychological secrets of deception, micro-expression reading, crowd control, and nonverbal persuasion. Through personal anecdotes spanning arena tours, high-stakes negotiations, and business acquisitions, Alex demonstrates how mastering presentation, reframing failure, and owning underlying assets create lasting influence and financial independence.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Codie holds 16.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Codie as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 5.7 Guest disagreement 0.7 Codie pushing back 0.3
speaking balance: gold is Codie, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 25:30 Alex rejects the 'no bad audiences' trope
Alex directly disputes the conventional performer claim that bad audiences do not exist, arguing from experience that hostile or unresponsive rooms are very real.
Hardest push from Codie ▶ 1:33:39 Codie presses on stunt fatality riskCodie refuses to accept Alex's casual dismissal of danger, challenging him directly on whether he could have drowned during the cold water escape.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 1:40:35 Live mentalist suggestion revealAlex demonstrates psychological suggestion in real time, showing that Codie's seemingly independent choice of the King of Spades was anticipated and pre-written on the cards.
Codie holds their own ▶ 43:00 Codie outlines her crowd control power playCodie demonstrates executive command by breaking down her psychological tactic of using uncomfortable silence and clear boundaries to master an unruly audience.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Codie as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Codie pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Identifying Lies and Reading Micro-Expressions | 2 | 7 | 1 | 1 | Codie asks whether magicians can read liars, prompting Alex to demonstrate a live reflex test on her that exposes her micro-expression flutter. Codie is a receptive subject who reacts with amusement as Alex breaks down behavioral tells. | |
| Selecting Stage Volunteers and Psychological Suggestion | 2 | 6 | 1 | 1 | Alex explains why eager volunteers make the worst stage participants and breaks down techniques like instant stooging. Codie asks clarifying questions to explore how psychological compliance operates in live performance. | |
| Sponsor: Riverside AI Content Production | 3 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Following an ad read for Riverside, Codie asks about 'reading magic.' Alex draws an analogy to reading sheet music and explains how he assesses audience energy from backstage before the curtain lifts. | |
| Confidence, Competence, and Social Dynamics | 4 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Codie introduces a framework on projecting confidence versus overcompensating in dating scenarios. Alex synthesizes confidence as pure competence and shares an empathetic tactic he used in casino nightclubs. | |
| Body Language Rehearsal and Intentional Movements | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Alex describes practicing specific gestures and expressions in front of a mirror with target cards taped to walls. Codie observes that Alex uses precise micro-expressions in his personal interactions. | |
| Eliminating Counter-Motivations to Guide Behavior | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Alex explains psychological control by eliminating counter-motivations, demonstrating how to guide physical actions like which hand someone uses. Codie connects the concept to boardroom respect dynamics. | |
| Adapting to Difficult Rooms and Audience Listening | 3 | 6 | 2 | 0 | Alex rejects the conventional performer maxim that there are no bad audiences, sharing a story about discovering an unresponsive crowd was literally freezing. Codie reinforces the insight on listening before speaking. | |
| The Five Pillars of Articulate Performance | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Codie quotes Jordan Peterson on articulation being dangerous power, prompting Alex to outline his five pillars of great performance and the discipline of deliberate study over superficial consumption. | |
| Hypnotism, Suggestibility, and Trance States | 3 | 6 | 2 | 1 | Codie brings up Charles Manson's reported use of hypnosis. Alex reframes hypnosis as everyday trance states and explains the concept of 'the empty safe'—guarding secrets so people do not realize there is nothing profound inside. | |
| Honesty vs. Transparency and Financial Mindsets | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Codie and Alex analyze the distinction between honesty and full transparency. Codie provides substantive business critique of corporate salary transparency policies and scarcity mindsets. | |
| Navigating Tough Crowds: Codie's Silence Strategy | 7 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Codie takes command of the narrative, detailing how she managed an unruly corporate audience at an event in Detroit by using deliberate prolonged silence and an assertive ultimatum. | |
| Dealing with Disruptive Audience Members in Live Shows | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Alex details his protocol for ejecting disruptive, intoxicated patrons from casino shows while protecting the paying audience's experience. Codie agrees with holding ground against refund demands. | |
| Establishing Dominance via Audience Interaction | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Alex describes staring down non-compliant audience members to establish stage authority. Codie parallels this with addressing distracted or disengaged individuals in executive meetings. | |
| Starving Hecklers and Handling Online Trolls | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Alex explains how acknowledging hecklers gives them permission to continue and demonstrates how to subtly loop an unruly section in without making direct eye contact. | |
| Bombing on Stage: The Faena Miami Disaster | 3 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Alex recounts his worst stage disaster at the Faena in Miami when an event was mismanaged with overlapping DJs and dancefloors. Codie shares her own visceral memories of bombing early in her speaking career. | |
| Reframing Failure and Dealing with Brutal Reviews | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Alex explains why he bans the words 'failure' and 'stress' from his vocabulary, recounting how he reframed a brutal review in a circus publication early in his career. Codie agrees on treating setbacks as scientific iterations. | |
| Ringling Bros., Touring Life, and the Circus Train | 3 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Alex shares the formative experience of touring on the circus train as Ringling's youngest ringmaster and transitioning into self-producing shows rather than remaining a gig performer. | |
| Business Verticals: Feld Entertainment & Merch Acquisition | 6 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Alex shares Kenneth Feld's lesson on owning manufacturing verticals to increase profit margins. Codie's prior business advice inspired Alex to acquire an embroidery business that supplies Codie's merchandise. | |
| Entertainment Industry Economics and WWE Lessons | 5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Codie highlights Vince McMahon's structural ownership model in WWE, and Alex breaks down Jay Leno's dual-income strategy of funding lifestyle through side ventures while saving entertainment earnings. | |
| Reframing in Action: The Taylor Swift AMA Flaming Rose | 3 | 7 | 1 | 0 | Alex details consulting for Taylor Swift on the AMAs. When she burned her hand during rehearsal, he preemptively claimed the effect was 'too difficult' to trigger her elite competitive drive rather than letting producers cut it. | |
| Anticipating Counterarguments in Negotiation | 4 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Alex explains how magicians prepare for objections by modeling counterpart thoughts ahead of time, applying Sun Tzu principles to casino residency negotiations. Codie notes the danger of getting counterparts entrenched. | |
| Embracing Misogi: The 39-Degree Cold Shock Escape | 3 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Alex explains the Japanese concept of Misogi and his 'Cold Shock' stunt—holding his breath for over two minutes picking locks in 39-degree water chained in a 100-pound vest. | |
| Cold Shock Realities and the 50-50-50 Tour Challenge | 3 | 6 | 2 | 2 | Codie questions whether the extreme underwater stunt was lethal. Alex clarifies the safety engineering while detailing his upcoming 50-50-50 tour challenge. | |
| Live Card Magic and Suggestion Demonstration | 2 | 8 | 1 | 0 | Alex performs a live card suggestion trick on Codie, proving that despite her belief that she deviated from his suggestion, he had pre-written 'The King of Spades' across the backs of four aces. |
Statements from this episode (21)
Ramon: Magicians spot lies by prompting questions with known answers
“The interesting thing that magicians can do is I can force something on you, whether it's a free choice or a question where I already know the answer, and then determine if you're lying or telling the truth based off of your reaction.”
Ramon: Eye fluttering is the most obvious nonverbal tell for lying
“The most obvious one, and people probably have seen this and heard about it, is the eye flutters.”
Ramon: The most eager audience volunteer makes the worst presentation pick
“You know what the worst person, I'll tell you who the worst person to pick for a magic show, or just any sort of, ah, presentation, doesn't just have to be magic, is the person who is the most eager to get up on stage. So if there's someone that's like, I wann…”
Ramon: Experienced Magicians Can Predict Illusions by Reading Subconscious Cues
“So I can watch another magician, ok, I know why he's saying the things he's saying, why he's standing the way he's standing, why he's wearing what he's wearing, why he's choosing to use these specific words, because I can read magic and I can see And just by w…”
Ramon: Engaging front-row attendees first settles inattentive adult audiences
“Because I feel like if you bash them and you're like, come on people, let's go. Like it's a high school pep rally. Adults and people are like, who are you? Wait, what are we doing here? But if it's like, all right, we're going to get going here. Are you ready?…”
Ramon: Vocal Intonation Swings and Whispers Maintain Audience Engagement
“If I lower my voice to more of a whisper, it's called Soto Voce, right, these are like theater techniques, these are performance techniques. So if I tell you something, and then I get really big because I'm super excited about it just, it keeps the interest ga…”
Ramon: Contrary to common belief, awful audiences genuinely exist
“There's a famous debate amongst magicians is, you know, is there such thing as a bad audience, and The classic answer, answer is no. There's no such thing as bad audience, only bad performers. Right? That's not true at all. There are awful audiences.”
Alex Ramon: Deconstructing single speeches on video is the key to improving articulation
“You can get better if you focus in on maybe one speech that you like, that you see a presentation, and you focus and you study how someone's so articulate, whether it's on a YouTube video. I mean, YouTube is amazing because you can just break it down and watch…”
Ramon: Stage hypnotists whittle down volunteers to find the most suggestible
“That's why whenever you see a hypnotist show, they grab like 30 audience members, right? First. And then they start eliminating them. And at the very end, there may be six people left on stage. And these are the six that are the most controllable. The ones tha…”
Ramon: Magicians guard secrets because knowing them disenchants audiences
“The reason why magicians don't tell their secrets, ok, is because if the audience knew the secrets, they'd immediately become disenchanted. Right? So magicians guard an empty safe, not just to protect these vital, important secrets. But they guard the safe so …”
Alex Ramon: Leaders Can Be Honest Without Full Transparency
“So you can be honest without being fully transparent.”
Sanchez: Direct call-outs force disengaged meeting participants to pay attention
“And so even in, like, a small group of five or six people, the way to fix that is usually you call them out. You go, oh, hey, hey, Bob, like, how's it going? You thought about that the other day, didn't you? And then they're like, fucking put the computer down…”
Sanchez: Business Is About Making Non-Fatal Mistakes Quickly to Learn
“Everything in business is just how fast can I make mistakes that won't kill me so that I can learn the next lesson and move forward in the game.”
Ramon: I have self-produced my shows and held casino leases for 15 years
“So I've produced my own show now for 15 years. And so I don't, no one produces myself. That's like, I have the contracts and the leases with the casinos and the billboards and the advertising and all that. Those are my contracts. My payroll, my everything else…”
Ramon: Feld Entertainment is privately held and worth about $3 billion
“It's a private company, Feld Entertainment. It's about worth about three billion dollars. One man and his daughters own it.”
Ramon: Magician vertically integrated tour merch by acquiring a screen printer
“And I sell merch, shirts, and hats after my shows, and so I ended up acquiring a screen print embroidery company, and it was just, The exact formula that Feld Entertainment does is they own these businesses that only serve as verticals to what they're doing”
Sanchez: WWE built a brilliant business through ruthless intellectual property ownership
“I mean, they owned everything. They owned the rights, you know, they owned all the licensing, they had royalties on all their gears, they bought their competitors, and despite him being a little bit of a crazy person brilliant execution, and we don't see that …”
Leno earned over $300M hosting The Tonight Show without spending his salary
“He's never spent a dime of his Tonight Show money. And in 20 years, he was paid over three hundred million dollars.”
Ramon: Build a primary revenue river before seeking multiple income streams
“I don't want streams. I want a river, right? Like, so let's get your river first. Once you have a river, then get your other streams. And I think that so often people try and just think, they hear this buzzword from, you know, whether it's influencers or whate…”
Ramon: Reframing addresses counterpart objections while maintaining the core request
“If I present you with a deal point, and you have an objection, ok, the reframe is to present you another option while addressing your objection, but still making the same request. I'm still getting the same point, right? That's a part of the negotiation.”
Ramon: Magician created Taylor Swift's flaming rose illusion for the AMAs
“I'm working, ah, consulting with Taylor Swift on Blank Space, and it was for her world premiere performance on the American Music Awards, and so this production company in L.A., they called me to consult on this performance, and they wanted this magic effect, …”