Dec 18, 2025 · 33m · american-optimist
America’s New AI Strategy: "We're Building a Tech Force" · Joe Lonsdale
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of American Optimist, host Joe Lonsdale interviews Office of Personnel Management Director Scott Kupor about launching the US Tech Force initiative to recruit top tech talent into federal service. Together, they outline major civil service reforms, including merit-based testing, performance accountability, and applying Silicon Valley talent strategies to modernize government operations.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Joe holds 23.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Joe as informed peer 3.9 Guest teaching 1.8 Guest disagreement 0.0 Joe pushing back 0.6
speaking balance: gold is Joe, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 4:56 Scott rejects traditional government recruiting pitches
Scott passionately attacks the standard federal pitch of lifetime employment, calling it the worst message he has ever heard in talent acquisition.
Hardest push from Joe ▶ 25:08 Joe challenges Scott on bureaucratic resistanceJoe directly confronts Scott with the failure mode of Obama's Digital Service, questioning how TechForce will prevent entrenched bureaucrats from blocking needed changes.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:35 Scott outlines federal performance rating statisticsScott reveals specific OPM data demonstrating that 70 to 80 percent of federal employees receive the highest rating while almost none receive failing marks.
Joe holds their own ▶ 16:50 Joe details the 1883 Pendleton Act and testing historyJoe cites the exact origins of civil service examinations from 1883 and their 1970s abolition, prompting Scott to praise his wonky command of the history.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Joe as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Joe pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Host Overview: Introducing OPM Director Scott Kupor | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Joe introduces Scott Kupor and sets up the announcement of the US Tech Force initiative. Scott provides federal workforce demographic data showing a severe shortage of workers under 30 compared to the private sector. | |
| Building Talent Networks and Venture Capital Lessons | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Joe and Scott discuss lessons learned building Andreessen Horowitz's talent network and VC principles from Scott's book. The conversation is collaborative and mutual in tone. | |
| Transitioning from Silicon Valley to Public Service | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Scott recounts how he connected with Howard Lutnick to join OPM during the transition. Joe adds his own observations from transition meetings with Lutnick, Musk, and Ramaswamy. | |
| Overhauling Government Performance Ratings and Accountability | 4 | 3 | 0 | 1 | Scott explains the severe grade inflation in federal performance ratings where 80% receive top marks and only 0.2% receive low marks. Joe touches on 1970s civil service legislation and asks how top performers will be rewarded. | |
| Restoring Merit-Based Testing in Federal Hiring | 7 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Joe demonstrates deep historical knowledge regarding the 1883 Pendleton Act and the ending of civil service testing in the 1970s, which Scott enthusiastically validates. Scott explains the resolution of the decades-old PACE consent decree. | |
| Removing Degree and Tenure Barriers for Modern Roles | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Scott critiques federal job descriptions with rigid tenure and degree requirements using a DOGE engineer example. Joe connects this to Cicero's state-level policy work eliminating degree requirements. | |
| Applying DOGE Structure, Standalone Teams, and Public Service | 5 | 2 | 0 | 4 | Joe challenges Scott by comparing TechForce to Obama's US Digital Service, arguing USDS was neutralized by bureaucracy and asking how DOGE principles prevent that. Scott explains the need for standalone reporting structures and political appointee backing. | |
| Economic Optimism, Pro-Growth Strategy, and Joining Tech Force | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Scott presents an optimistic economic outlook centered on pro-growth policies over spending cuts alone, and provides links for prospective applicants to join TechForce. |
Statements from this episode (16)
Kupor: Only 7% of the federal workforce is under age 30.
“We've got about seven percent of the workforce in the federal government that is early career. And so I'm not supposed to say, you know, ages, but let's call it under the age of 30 is the way to think about it. And that compares with about, like, 22% in the no…”
Kupor: Government faces massive retirement cliff over next 10 years
“We're gonna, like, retire out a ton, ton of people over the next 10 years, and we're doing nothing to actually replace them with people who are modern, Understand new technology.”
Kupor: Tech Force aims to recruit at least 1,000 engineers into government
“TechForce is basically, ah, a ambitious project to recruit at least a thousand engineers into government.”
Kupor: Tech Force is partnering with about 25 tech companies including Palantir
“We're partnering with about 25 of, you know, the best technology companies, obviously companies that you know well, like Palantir and Anvil and others.”
Kupor: Susie Wiles helped navigate White House policy to launch Tech Force
“I'm super grateful that we've had the sponsorship of Susie Wiles on this, who, you know, kind of has really helped us kind of navigate kind of through all the various, you know, things you have to do to get these policies through on the other end”
Lonsdale: State Department cannot compete with defense agencies for tech talent
“I don't think Department of State's going to be able to compete against Department of War, unfortunately, for top talent with how structured right now”
Kupor: Marc Andreessen connected him to Trump transition chair Howard Lutnick
“The truth of the matter is, you know, like I sent Mark and Ben an email when they were getting more involved in the campaign last summer, and I was like, hey, like, you know, if Trump wins and there's something that's interesting that works out, I'd love to at…”
Kupor: 70-80% of Federal Employees Receive Top Ratings, Only 0.2% Fail
“In the government, if you look across, you know, government for long periods of time, about, like, you know, 70, 80% of people get ranked a four or five, meaning, like, 70, 80% of the people are well above, like, average, basically, and Literally, like, 0.2% o…”
Kupor: OPM Is Implementing Forced Curve Ratings Across Federal Government
“We're doing this in our, in the, across the government is you have to kind of effectively legislate you know, effectively a force curve in order to change this behavior. So you have done that at senior levels of the organization. Yeah, we're doing it. We're do…”
Kupor: OPM successfully dissolved 42-year federal hiring test consent decree
“And literally that consent decree existed until about three months ago when we kind of went back to the original plaintiff in that case, actually, who was still alive. And we were able to actually get to a resolution where we got ourselves out of that consent …”
Kupor: Federal government relied on self-attestation without skill tests for 42 years
“Literally for like 42 years basically the government did away with any form of test, not just like that pace test, which was kind of a, an aptitude test and a leadership test, but also any kind of like Functional tests... We literally relied on self-attestatio…”
Lonsdale: Cicero Institute is eliminating degree requirements in multiple states
“One of our big policies in a lot of states in Cicero is we're actually getting rid of the college degree requirement for certain jobs where we care more about the skill than about forcing someone to go, you know, get, necessarily get brainwashed for four years…”
Kupor: Airbnb's Joe Gebbia redesigned the OPM retirement application with four people.
“Joe literally took a team of two killer engineers and like two great design people, and it's completely redesigned our retirement application, but it worked partly because we had killer people like Joe and team, but also because it was set up organizationally …”
Lonsdale: Donors are using nonprofits to supplement federal tech salaries.
“Like he actually is bringing in a lot of other talent, but he's actually finding a way to pay them more using a nonprofit, which actually I happen to be a donor. I think Mark and others are donors to that as well.”
Kupor: OPM Is Eliminating Degree and Tenure Requirements in Federal Job Classifications
“And so if we, and we're doing this, by the way, we're going to go eliminate all those requirements in the job classifications so that we can at least hire people at the level that's appropriate for their skills.”
Kupor: Government Cannot Cut Its Way to Deficit Neutrality Without Growth
“No matter how much we cut, and I think there's a lot of ways to cut, you can't cut your way to deficit neutrality in the government, basically. You can only solve this problem through growth, so we have to get to, like, three plus percent GDP growth”