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Dec 20, 2020 · 20m · we-live-to-build

The Hidden Cost of 9-9-6: Why Bay Area Engineers Are Spoiled

Toby Zhang · 12m spoken Sean Weisbrot · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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In this episode of We Live to Build, host Sean Weisbrot interviews ShopLitLive founder and CEO Toby Zhang to discuss the operational advantages, cost efficiencies, and management workflows of running a dual-hub startup with engineering in China and business operations in the United States. Zhang shares candid comparisons between China's intense 9-9-6 work culture and Silicon Valley, while offering practical insights on executive habits and building wealth through startup equity.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Sean holds 34.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Sean as informed peer 2.0 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 0.8 Sean pushing back 0.8
05100:0010:0020:001:44–5:22 · Sean as informed peer 1/10 Toby Zhang's Background and ShopLitLive Overview Sean asks standard introductory questions about Toby's background and cross-border startup structure. Toby explains the logistical advantages of operating engineering in Shanghai, such as cost efficiency and 24-hour development cycles.5:22–9:05 · Sean as informed peer 2/10 Engineering Recruitment and Multilingual Operations Sean presses Toby on whether a Chinese engineering team is suited to build a product localized for Western consumers. Toby clarifies that business development, product management, and UI/UX are led by US-based talent while technical development is executed in Shanghai.9:05–12:15 · Sean as informed peer 3/10 Globalization Trends and Global-First Startups Sean brings his own observations about Southeast Asian and East Asian startup ecosystems usually focusing on domestic rather than global markets. Toby agrees and explains market dynamics using Shopee as an example of localized expansion.12:16–16:11 · Sean as informed peer 2/10 Compensation Disparities and China's 9-9-6 Work Ethic Toby contrasts Shanghai developer compensation and the 9-9-6 work culture with Bay Area engineering salaries, bluntly asserting that Silicon Valley engineers are spoiled. Sean transitions the conversation to personal growth routines and reading habits.16:11–18:55 · Sean as informed peer 2/10 Building Wealth Through Equity and Calculated Risk-Taking Toby walks through the financial mathematics of why standard salaries fail to build substantial wealth compared to startup equity. Sean agrees, adding his own critique of traditional schooling failing to teach financial realities.1:44–5:22 · Guest teaching 3/10 Toby Zhang's Background and ShopLitLive Overview Sean asks standard introductory questions about Toby's background and cross-border startup structure. Toby explains the logistical advantages of operating engineering in Shanghai, such as cost efficiency and 24-hour development cycles.5:22–9:05 · Guest teaching 3/10 Engineering Recruitment and Multilingual Operations Sean presses Toby on whether a Chinese engineering team is suited to build a product localized for Western consumers. Toby clarifies that business development, product management, and UI/UX are led by US-based talent while technical development is executed in Shanghai.9:05–12:15 · Guest teaching 2/10 Globalization Trends and Global-First Startups Sean brings his own observations about Southeast Asian and East Asian startup ecosystems usually focusing on domestic rather than global markets. Toby agrees and explains market dynamics using Shopee as an example of localized expansion.12:16–16:11 · Guest teaching 4/10 Compensation Disparities and China's 9-9-6 Work Ethic Toby contrasts Shanghai developer compensation and the 9-9-6 work culture with Bay Area engineering salaries, bluntly asserting that Silicon Valley engineers are spoiled. Sean transitions the conversation to personal growth routines and reading habits.16:11–18:55 · Guest teaching 3/10 Building Wealth Through Equity and Calculated Risk-Taking Toby walks through the financial mathematics of why standard salaries fail to build substantial wealth compared to startup equity. Sean agrees, adding his own critique of traditional schooling failing to teach financial realities.1:44–5:22 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Toby Zhang's Background and ShopLitLive Overview Sean asks standard introductory questions about Toby's background and cross-border startup structure. Toby explains the logistical advantages of operating engineering in Shanghai, such as cost efficiency and 24-hour development cycles.5:22–9:05 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Engineering Recruitment and Multilingual Operations Sean presses Toby on whether a Chinese engineering team is suited to build a product localized for Western consumers. Toby clarifies that business development, product management, and UI/UX are led by US-based talent while technical development is executed in Shanghai.9:05–12:15 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Globalization Trends and Global-First Startups Sean brings his own observations about Southeast Asian and East Asian startup ecosystems usually focusing on domestic rather than global markets. Toby agrees and explains market dynamics using Shopee as an example of localized expansion.12:16–16:11 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Compensation Disparities and China's 9-9-6 Work Ethic Toby contrasts Shanghai developer compensation and the 9-9-6 work culture with Bay Area engineering salaries, bluntly asserting that Silicon Valley engineers are spoiled. Sean transitions the conversation to personal growth routines and reading habits.16:11–18:55 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Building Wealth Through Equity and Calculated Risk-Taking Toby walks through the financial mathematics of why standard salaries fail to build substantial wealth compared to startup equity. Sean agrees, adding his own critique of traditional schooling failing to teach financial realities.1:44–5:22 · Sean pushing back 0/10 Toby Zhang's Background and ShopLitLive Overview Sean asks standard introductory questions about Toby's background and cross-border startup structure. Toby explains the logistical advantages of operating engineering in Shanghai, such as cost efficiency and 24-hour development cycles.5:22–9:05 · Sean pushing back 3/10 Engineering Recruitment and Multilingual Operations Sean presses Toby on whether a Chinese engineering team is suited to build a product localized for Western consumers. Toby clarifies that business development, product management, and UI/UX are led by US-based talent while technical development is executed in Shanghai.9:05–12:15 · Sean pushing back 1/10 Globalization Trends and Global-First Startups Sean brings his own observations about Southeast Asian and East Asian startup ecosystems usually focusing on domestic rather than global markets. Toby agrees and explains market dynamics using Shopee as an example of localized expansion.12:16–16:11 · Sean pushing back 0/10 Compensation Disparities and China's 9-9-6 Work Ethic Toby contrasts Shanghai developer compensation and the 9-9-6 work culture with Bay Area engineering salaries, bluntly asserting that Silicon Valley engineers are spoiled. Sean transitions the conversation to personal growth routines and reading habits.16:11–18:55 · Sean pushing back 0/10 Building Wealth Through Equity and Calculated Risk-Taking Toby walks through the financial mathematics of why standard salaries fail to build substantial wealth compared to startup equity. Sean agrees, adding his own critique of traditional schooling failing to teach financial realities.

speaking balance: gold is Sean, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Sean 70.5% · guest 29.5%0:00 · Sean 70.5% · guest 29.5%3:00 · Sean 12.3% · guest 87.7%3:00 · Sean 12.3% · guest 87.7%6:00 · Sean 21.2% · guest 78.8%6:00 · Sean 21.2% · guest 78.8%9:00 · Sean 43% · guest 57%9:00 · Sean 43% · guest 57%12:00 · Sean 21.9% · guest 78.1%12:00 · Sean 21.9% · guest 78.1%15:00 · Sean 39.8% · guest 60.2%15:00 · Sean 39.8% · guest 60.2%18:00 · Sean 34.4% · guest 65.6%18:00 · Sean 34.4% · guest 65.6%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 13:30 Bay Area engineers called spoiled

Toby directly criticizes Western tech culture, contrasting 9-9-6 work hours with 250k Silicon Valley packages and declaring engineers in the Bay Area spoiled.

 Hardest push from Sean ▶ 6:55 Questioning Chinese engineering for US products

Sean challenges Toby's business model directly, asking why a Chinese team would be fit to localize a concept for the American consumer market.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 17:00 Salary vs equity wealth breakdown

Toby walks step-by-step through tax, living cost, and savings numbers on a 100k salary to demonstrate mathematically why salary alone takes 50 years to accumulate one million dollars.

 Sean holds their own ▶ 10:54 Host cites Asian startup ecosystem realities

Sean draws upon his direct experience living in Asia to note that startups in Vietnam, Korea, Japan, and the Philippines primarily build for domestic markets rather than globally.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicSean as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementSean pushing backWhy
Toby Zhang's Background and ShopLitLive Overview 1300 Sean asks standard introductory questions about Toby's background and cross-border startup structure. Toby explains the logistical advantages of operating engineering in Shanghai, such as cost efficiency and 24-hour development cycles.
Engineering Recruitment and Multilingual Operations 2313 Sean presses Toby on whether a Chinese engineering team is suited to build a product localized for Western consumers. Toby clarifies that business development, product management, and UI/UX are led by US-based talent while technical development is executed in Shanghai.
Globalization Trends and Global-First Startups 3201 Sean brings his own observations about Southeast Asian and East Asian startup ecosystems usually focusing on domestic rather than global markets. Toby agrees and explains market dynamics using Shopee as an example of localized expansion.
Compensation Disparities and China's 9-9-6 Work Ethic 2420 Toby contrasts Shanghai developer compensation and the 9-9-6 work culture with Bay Area engineering salaries, bluntly asserting that Silicon Valley engineers are spoiled. Sean transitions the conversation to personal growth routines and reading habits.
Building Wealth Through Equity and Calculated Risk-Taking 2310 Toby walks through the financial mathematics of why standard salaries fail to build substantial wealth compared to startup equity. Sean agrees, adding his own critique of traditional schooling failing to teach financial realities.

Statements from this episode (9)

Assertion Supported
Zhang: Live shopping is established in China but just starting in US
“And this is something that's very prominent in Asia already, particularly in China. In the U S it's just starting”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 3:01
Assertion Supported
Zhang: Bay Area engineers cost 4 to 5 times more than Shanghai peers
“So an average engineer here in the Bay Area cost about four to five times the salary of one of equal caliber in Shanghai.”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 3:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Weisbrot: Most Southeast Asian and East Asian startups build locally, not globally
“When I look at the startup ecosystem in a given country, let's say Vietnam, for example, they generally are not building for a global audience. I don't just see this in Vietnam. I also see this in Japan and Korea and Philippines and most Southeast Asian countr…”
Sean Weisbrot Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 10:54
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Zhang: More startups will follow Shopee's model of local-first expansion
“I think one of one of such examples, it's a company called Shopee. So Shopee is a company, you know, that focused, you know, quite a bit in their local market first before expanding to kind of more widely in Southeast Asia. And I think we'll, we'll start to se…”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 11:46
Assertion Supported
Zhang: Experienced Shanghai iOS developers earn $3,000 to $4,000 monthly all-in
“So if we take a look at salary levels for engineer in Shanghai, say someone with maybe seven to eight years of experience, let's just take the example of an iOS developer. Typical salary range for this person, assuming, you know, if he comes from a You know, t…”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 12:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Zhang: 9-9-6 work schedule is commonplace rather than rare in China
“There's something in China called like nine nine six. Type of work style, which means they work from nine AM to nine PM, six days a week. Many companies have these kinds of policies around employees working on weekends. It's more commonplace than rare.”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 13:15
Assertion Supported
Zhang: Eight-year Bay Area mobile developers make $200K-$250K all-in
“And then if we look at a similar engineer who has, you know, probably eight years of experience, mobile app developer in the Bay area either work for big company or early stage startups, you know, their starting salary is Somewhere like, 200 K, 250 K all in. S…”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 13:28
Opinion
Zhang: Many Bay Area software engineers are 'very spoiled'
“And quite frankly speaking, a lot of engineers in the Bay Area are very, in my opinion, spoiled.”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 13:47
Insight
Zhang: Real wealth comes from equity ownership, not a salary
“Actually in the world, other than celebrities and movie stars, no one is able to become really wealthy by taking a salary. The only way to get wealthy or to build wealth is to actually trade your salary for equity.”
Toby Zhang Dec 20, 2020 ▶ 16:43
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