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Apr 20, 2016 · 24m · top-founders

"I Don't Know How Much I Made in 2015, It's Too Compliated" with Jason Hartman of JasonHartman.com EP 243

Jason Hartman · 11m spoken Nathan Latka · 10m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka engages real estate investor and podcaster Jason Hartman in a contentious debate over financial transparency, cash flow versus leverage, and the media funnel powering Hartman's investment business.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 46.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.0 Guest teaching 4.8 Guest disagreement 6.0 Nathan pushing back 6.2
05100:0010:0020:002:05–6:03 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Examining Jason Hartman's Real Estate Investment Business Nathan relentlessly grills Jason on his 2015 personal rental income and transaction volume, refusing to let him off the hook when he claims he does not know the numbers because of separate corporate entities. Jason defensively pushes back, pointing out that net worth makes someone a multimillionaire rather than annual income.6:03–10:34 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Debate on Leverage, Cash Flow, and Real Estate Risk Nathan argues that heavy leverage is dangerous and that cash flow is the only sensible metric, invoking the 2008 housing crash. Jason aggressively rejects the premise, lecturing Nathan on the 1% rent-to-value rule, OPM (other people's money), and calling a cash-flow-only perspective myopic.10:34–14:29 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Evaluating IRR, Market Types, and Inflation-Induced Debt Destruction Nathan claims high IRR without cash flow implies gambling on appreciation, prompting Jason to tell him to listen instead of jumping the gun. Jason educates him on tax benefits, depreciation, linear versus cyclical markets, and inflation-induced debt destruction while Nathan counters that Jason is masking inability to explain his numbers.14:29–19:34 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Addressing Audience Skepticism and Show Performance Jason takes a swipe at Nathan by contrasting his own show where listeners allow ideas to be explained without someone constantly interrupting. Nathan presses him on Libsyn download numbers and monthly math, which Jason brushes off as vanity metrics compared to backend sales and event attendance.19:36–20:50 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsorship Announcement and HostGator Promotion Host solo mid-roll advertisement read for HostGator and podcast giveaway housekeeping.2:05–6:03 · Guest teaching 4/10 Examining Jason Hartman's Real Estate Investment Business Nathan relentlessly grills Jason on his 2015 personal rental income and transaction volume, refusing to let him off the hook when he claims he does not know the numbers because of separate corporate entities. Jason defensively pushes back, pointing out that net worth makes someone a multimillionaire rather than annual income.6:03–10:34 · Guest teaching 7/10 Debate on Leverage, Cash Flow, and Real Estate Risk Nathan argues that heavy leverage is dangerous and that cash flow is the only sensible metric, invoking the 2008 housing crash. Jason aggressively rejects the premise, lecturing Nathan on the 1% rent-to-value rule, OPM (other people's money), and calling a cash-flow-only perspective myopic.10:34–14:29 · Guest teaching 8/10 Evaluating IRR, Market Types, and Inflation-Induced Debt Destruction Nathan claims high IRR without cash flow implies gambling on appreciation, prompting Jason to tell him to listen instead of jumping the gun. Jason educates him on tax benefits, depreciation, linear versus cyclical markets, and inflation-induced debt destruction while Nathan counters that Jason is masking inability to explain his numbers.14:29–19:34 · Guest teaching 5/10 Addressing Audience Skepticism and Show Performance Jason takes a swipe at Nathan by contrasting his own show where listeners allow ideas to be explained without someone constantly interrupting. Nathan presses him on Libsyn download numbers and monthly math, which Jason brushes off as vanity metrics compared to backend sales and event attendance.19:36–20:50 · Guest teaching 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsorship Announcement and HostGator Promotion Host solo mid-roll advertisement read for HostGator and podcast giveaway housekeeping.2:05–6:03 · Guest disagreement 6/10 Examining Jason Hartman's Real Estate Investment Business Nathan relentlessly grills Jason on his 2015 personal rental income and transaction volume, refusing to let him off the hook when he claims he does not know the numbers because of separate corporate entities. Jason defensively pushes back, pointing out that net worth makes someone a multimillionaire rather than annual income.6:03–10:34 · Guest disagreement 8/10 Debate on Leverage, Cash Flow, and Real Estate Risk Nathan argues that heavy leverage is dangerous and that cash flow is the only sensible metric, invoking the 2008 housing crash. Jason aggressively rejects the premise, lecturing Nathan on the 1% rent-to-value rule, OPM (other people's money), and calling a cash-flow-only perspective myopic.10:34–14:29 · Guest disagreement 9/10 Evaluating IRR, Market Types, and Inflation-Induced Debt Destruction Nathan claims high IRR without cash flow implies gambling on appreciation, prompting Jason to tell him to listen instead of jumping the gun. Jason educates him on tax benefits, depreciation, linear versus cyclical markets, and inflation-induced debt destruction while Nathan counters that Jason is masking inability to explain his numbers.14:29–19:34 · Guest disagreement 7/10 Addressing Audience Skepticism and Show Performance Jason takes a swipe at Nathan by contrasting his own show where listeners allow ideas to be explained without someone constantly interrupting. Nathan presses him on Libsyn download numbers and monthly math, which Jason brushes off as vanity metrics compared to backend sales and event attendance.19:36–20:50 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsorship Announcement and HostGator Promotion Host solo mid-roll advertisement read for HostGator and podcast giveaway housekeeping.2:05–6:03 · Nathan pushing back 9/10 Examining Jason Hartman's Real Estate Investment Business Nathan relentlessly grills Jason on his 2015 personal rental income and transaction volume, refusing to let him off the hook when he claims he does not know the numbers because of separate corporate entities. Jason defensively pushes back, pointing out that net worth makes someone a multimillionaire rather than annual income.6:03–10:34 · Nathan pushing back 8/10 Debate on Leverage, Cash Flow, and Real Estate Risk Nathan argues that heavy leverage is dangerous and that cash flow is the only sensible metric, invoking the 2008 housing crash. Jason aggressively rejects the premise, lecturing Nathan on the 1% rent-to-value rule, OPM (other people's money), and calling a cash-flow-only perspective myopic.10:34–14:29 · Nathan pushing back 8/10 Evaluating IRR, Market Types, and Inflation-Induced Debt Destruction Nathan claims high IRR without cash flow implies gambling on appreciation, prompting Jason to tell him to listen instead of jumping the gun. Jason educates him on tax benefits, depreciation, linear versus cyclical markets, and inflation-induced debt destruction while Nathan counters that Jason is masking inability to explain his numbers.14:29–19:34 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Addressing Audience Skepticism and Show Performance Jason takes a swipe at Nathan by contrasting his own show where listeners allow ideas to be explained without someone constantly interrupting. Nathan presses him on Libsyn download numbers and monthly math, which Jason brushes off as vanity metrics compared to backend sales and event attendance.19:36–20:50 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsorship Announcement and HostGator Promotion Host solo mid-roll advertisement read for HostGator and podcast giveaway housekeeping.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 65.6% · guest 34.4%0:00 · Nathan 65.6% · guest 34.4%3:00 · Nathan 46% · guest 54%3:00 · Nathan 46% · guest 54%6:00 · Nathan 34.3% · guest 65.7%6:00 · Nathan 34.3% · guest 65.7%9:00 · Nathan 32.7% · guest 67.3%9:00 · Nathan 32.7% · guest 67.3%12:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%12:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%15:00 · Nathan 43.6% · guest 56.4%15:00 · Nathan 43.6% · guest 56.4%18:00 · Nathan 50.9% · guest 49.1%18:00 · Nathan 50.9% · guest 49.1%21:00 · Nathan 64.4% · guest 35.6%21:00 · Nathan 64.4% · guest 35.6%24:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%24:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 14:40 Jason takes direct shot at host's conduct

Jason openly criticizes Nathan on air, stating his own podcast listeners benefit because they do not have someone jumping down their throat on every statement.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 5:08 Nathan refuses to accept missing revenue numbers

Nathan bluntly refuses Jason's entity excuse, repeatedly questioning how a self-proclaimed multimillionaire real estate guru does not know his personal rental income.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 11:40 Jason explains multi-dimensional real estate returns

Jason dismantles Nathan's appreciation accusation by detailing depreciation, linear vs cyclical markets, and inflation-induced debt destruction.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 9:53 Nathan challenges leverage strategy with 2008 crash comparison

Nathan pushes back against Jason's high-leverage doctrine by pointing out that over-leveraging other people's money wiped out investors when property values plummeted in 2008.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Examining Jason Hartman's Real Estate Investment Business 5469 Nathan relentlessly grills Jason on his 2015 personal rental income and transaction volume, refusing to let him off the hook when he claims he does not know the numbers because of separate corporate entities. Jason defensively pushes back, pointing out that net worth makes someone a multimillionaire rather than annual income.
Debate on Leverage, Cash Flow, and Real Estate Risk 6788 Nathan argues that heavy leverage is dangerous and that cash flow is the only sensible metric, invoking the 2008 housing crash. Jason aggressively rejects the premise, lecturing Nathan on the 1% rent-to-value rule, OPM (other people's money), and calling a cash-flow-only perspective myopic.
Evaluating IRR, Market Types, and Inflation-Induced Debt Destruction 5898 Nathan claims high IRR without cash flow implies gambling on appreciation, prompting Jason to tell him to listen instead of jumping the gun. Jason educates him on tax benefits, depreciation, linear versus cyclical markets, and inflation-induced debt destruction while Nathan counters that Jason is masking inability to explain his numbers.
Addressing Audience Skepticism and Show Performance 4576 Jason takes a swipe at Nathan by contrasting his own show where listeners allow ideas to be explained without someone constantly interrupting. Nathan presses him on Libsyn download numbers and monthly math, which Jason brushes off as vanity metrics compared to backend sales and event attendance.
Mid-Roll Sponsorship Announcement and HostGator Promotion 0000 Host solo mid-roll advertisement read for HostGator and podcast giveaway housekeeping.

Statements from this episode (9)

Insight
Jason Hartman: Residential real estate beats commercial because shelter resists outsourcing
“You know, at the end of the day, everybody needs a place to live. They can outsource the call centers to India and the Philippines, and that lessens the need for office space. You know, they can outsource the manufacturing to China, lessens the need for indust…”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 2:14
Disclosure
Jason Hartman's real estate advisory firm generated $2.4 million in 2015
“The real estate investment company that does business for clients did about two million... Probably it's about 2.4 last year, I think.”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 2:47
Insight
Jason Hartman targets a 1% monthly rent-to-value ratio over property appreciation
“I don't invest based on appreciation. I invest based on rent to value ratios. Where I want to see that property rent for one percent of the value per month. So appreciation is the icing on the cake.”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 6:27
Insight
Jason Hartman argues that buying real estate with cash stifles investor growth
“If you have that cash to put down, then you would be stifling your growth. Because you would be waiting to buy your first single property until you saved up every ounce of cash, and you would have no leverage on that deal. The reason income property is so, so …”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 9:19
Insight
Jason Hartman: Leverage enables 10-12% annual IRR despite minimal cash flow
“You can get an IRR on a property exceeding 10, 12% annually with, you know, no to very little cash flow in the deal because you get leverage”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 10:51
Opinion
Jason Hartman: 2008 crash victims were idiots speculating in cyclical coastal markets
“The people that got hurt in the crash were idiots that were speculating on high-rise condos or high-flying properties in cyclical markets, not linear markets that we recommend. They were looking at the sexy markets. They were buying stuff in California, South…”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 12:04
Insight
Jason Hartman: A $150 monthly cash flow property yields 25-30% annual returns
“You can see that a property that Produces a 150 dollars a month in cashflow can give you an overall return on an investment of 25, 30% annually with moderate appreciation of, you know, five or six percent and paying your property manager and doing everything.”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 14:41
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Jason Hartman's top podcast episode with Daniel Pink reached 38,000 downloads
“And my most downloaded episode ever was, I believe, with Daniel Pink. That was about 38,000 downloads.”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 16:56
Opinion
Jason Hartman claims half of all podcast download numbers are faked
“Most podcasters are worried about their downloads and their downloads are, half of them are fake because they're Twitter bombing their downloads.”
Jason Hartman Apr 20, 2016 ▶ 17:34
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