StarZero All shows Try the podcast clipper →

Jun 20, 2016 · 34m · top-founders

EP 331: Trump Suicide Predicted By Best-Seller Ryan Holliday, Sites Ego

Ryan Holiday · 19m spoken Nathan Latka · 12m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of 'The Top,' host Nathan Latka interviews bestselling author Ryan Holiday to examine how unchecked ego, premature public praise, and fear-driven leadership undermine entrepreneurial and creative success.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 38.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 3.3 Guest teaching 5.4 Guest disagreement 3.3 Nathan pushing back 3.4
05100:0010:0020:0030:001:11–6:28 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Ryan Holiday's Early Career, Mentors, and First Publishing Deals Latka digs aggressively into Holiday's financial figures, questioning his book advances and publishing deal economics. Holiday politely clarifies how his publishing trajectory and early media controversies worked.6:30–11:04 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Stoic Philosophy, Book Royalties, and Financial Independence Latka assumes a smaller upfront advance warrants higher royalty rates, but Holiday corrects him on the fundamental mechanics of publishing advances versus backend royalties.11:04–15:07 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Defining Ego, Confidence, and Delusion in "Ego Is the Enemy" Latka challenges the book's core premise, asserting that he loves his ego and questioning whether Holiday chose the title purely for sensationalist marketing. Holiday responds by defining the critical boundary between confidence and delusional arrogance.15:07–19:17 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Nathan's Podcast Pitch and the Psychological Trap of Pre-Credit Latka uses his own promotional tactic of promising a million podcast downloads as a defense of ego. Holiday breaks down the psychological danger of claiming premature credit and relying on illusion rather than sustained output.19:17–25:05 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Historical Demagogues, Unchecked Ambition, and False Passion Latka shares his ambition to run for president by brainwashing himself into confidence, prompting Holiday to diagnose the pathology of demagogues and dismantle the myth that Steve Jobs and Kanye West succeeded because of their egos.25:07–29:24 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Mid-Episode Commercial Break: Austin Live Event and HostGator Promotion After an ad break, Latka defends the necessity of articulating ambitious goals beforehand, while Holiday attacks the 'fake it till you make it' mindset using analogies of doctors and firefighters.29:24–32:42 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Fear as a Poor Advisor, Demagogues, and Book Launch Announcement Latka suggests Donald Trump effectively harnesses fear as a political weapon, which Holiday refutes by noting historical demagogues invariably destroy themselves in the long run.1:11–6:28 · Guest teaching 3/10 Ryan Holiday's Early Career, Mentors, and First Publishing Deals Latka digs aggressively into Holiday's financial figures, questioning his book advances and publishing deal economics. Holiday politely clarifies how his publishing trajectory and early media controversies worked.6:30–11:04 · Guest teaching 6/10 Stoic Philosophy, Book Royalties, and Financial Independence Latka assumes a smaller upfront advance warrants higher royalty rates, but Holiday corrects him on the fundamental mechanics of publishing advances versus backend royalties.11:04–15:07 · Guest teaching 5/10 Defining Ego, Confidence, and Delusion in "Ego Is the Enemy" Latka challenges the book's core premise, asserting that he loves his ego and questioning whether Holiday chose the title purely for sensationalist marketing. Holiday responds by defining the critical boundary between confidence and delusional arrogance.15:07–19:17 · Guest teaching 7/10 Nathan's Podcast Pitch and the Psychological Trap of Pre-Credit Latka uses his own promotional tactic of promising a million podcast downloads as a defense of ego. Holiday breaks down the psychological danger of claiming premature credit and relying on illusion rather than sustained output.19:17–25:05 · Guest teaching 6/10 Historical Demagogues, Unchecked Ambition, and False Passion Latka shares his ambition to run for president by brainwashing himself into confidence, prompting Holiday to diagnose the pathology of demagogues and dismantle the myth that Steve Jobs and Kanye West succeeded because of their egos.25:07–29:24 · Guest teaching 5/10 Mid-Episode Commercial Break: Austin Live Event and HostGator Promotion After an ad break, Latka defends the necessity of articulating ambitious goals beforehand, while Holiday attacks the 'fake it till you make it' mindset using analogies of doctors and firefighters.29:24–32:42 · Guest teaching 6/10 Fear as a Poor Advisor, Demagogues, and Book Launch Announcement Latka suggests Donald Trump effectively harnesses fear as a political weapon, which Holiday refutes by noting historical demagogues invariably destroy themselves in the long run.1:11–6:28 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Ryan Holiday's Early Career, Mentors, and First Publishing Deals Latka digs aggressively into Holiday's financial figures, questioning his book advances and publishing deal economics. Holiday politely clarifies how his publishing trajectory and early media controversies worked.6:30–11:04 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Stoic Philosophy, Book Royalties, and Financial Independence Latka assumes a smaller upfront advance warrants higher royalty rates, but Holiday corrects him on the fundamental mechanics of publishing advances versus backend royalties.11:04–15:07 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Defining Ego, Confidence, and Delusion in "Ego Is the Enemy" Latka challenges the book's core premise, asserting that he loves his ego and questioning whether Holiday chose the title purely for sensationalist marketing. Holiday responds by defining the critical boundary between confidence and delusional arrogance.15:07–19:17 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Nathan's Podcast Pitch and the Psychological Trap of Pre-Credit Latka uses his own promotional tactic of promising a million podcast downloads as a defense of ego. Holiday breaks down the psychological danger of claiming premature credit and relying on illusion rather than sustained output.19:17–25:05 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Historical Demagogues, Unchecked Ambition, and False Passion Latka shares his ambition to run for president by brainwashing himself into confidence, prompting Holiday to diagnose the pathology of demagogues and dismantle the myth that Steve Jobs and Kanye West succeeded because of their egos.25:07–29:24 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Mid-Episode Commercial Break: Austin Live Event and HostGator Promotion After an ad break, Latka defends the necessity of articulating ambitious goals beforehand, while Holiday attacks the 'fake it till you make it' mindset using analogies of doctors and firefighters.29:24–32:42 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Fear as a Poor Advisor, Demagogues, and Book Launch Announcement Latka suggests Donald Trump effectively harnesses fear as a political weapon, which Holiday refutes by noting historical demagogues invariably destroy themselves in the long run.1:11–6:28 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Ryan Holiday's Early Career, Mentors, and First Publishing Deals Latka digs aggressively into Holiday's financial figures, questioning his book advances and publishing deal economics. Holiday politely clarifies how his publishing trajectory and early media controversies worked.6:30–11:04 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Stoic Philosophy, Book Royalties, and Financial Independence Latka assumes a smaller upfront advance warrants higher royalty rates, but Holiday corrects him on the fundamental mechanics of publishing advances versus backend royalties.11:04–15:07 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Defining Ego, Confidence, and Delusion in "Ego Is the Enemy" Latka challenges the book's core premise, asserting that he loves his ego and questioning whether Holiday chose the title purely for sensationalist marketing. Holiday responds by defining the critical boundary between confidence and delusional arrogance.15:07–19:17 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Nathan's Podcast Pitch and the Psychological Trap of Pre-Credit Latka uses his own promotional tactic of promising a million podcast downloads as a defense of ego. Holiday breaks down the psychological danger of claiming premature credit and relying on illusion rather than sustained output.19:17–25:05 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Historical Demagogues, Unchecked Ambition, and False Passion Latka shares his ambition to run for president by brainwashing himself into confidence, prompting Holiday to diagnose the pathology of demagogues and dismantle the myth that Steve Jobs and Kanye West succeeded because of their egos.25:07–29:24 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Mid-Episode Commercial Break: Austin Live Event and HostGator Promotion After an ad break, Latka defends the necessity of articulating ambitious goals beforehand, while Holiday attacks the 'fake it till you make it' mindset using analogies of doctors and firefighters.29:24–32:42 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Fear as a Poor Advisor, Demagogues, and Book Launch Announcement Latka suggests Donald Trump effectively harnesses fear as a political weapon, which Holiday refutes by noting historical demagogues invariably destroy themselves in the long run.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 62% · guest 38%0:00 · Nathan 62% · guest 38%3:00 · Nathan 23.8% · guest 76.2%3:00 · Nathan 23.8% · guest 76.2%6:00 · Nathan 23.5% · guest 76.5%6:00 · Nathan 23.5% · guest 76.5%9:00 · Nathan 42.5% · guest 57.5%9:00 · Nathan 42.5% · guest 57.5%12:00 · Nathan 15.5% · guest 84.5%12:00 · Nathan 15.5% · guest 84.5%15:00 · Nathan 32.5% · guest 67.5%15:00 · Nathan 32.5% · guest 67.5%18:00 · Nathan 26.2% · guest 73.8%18:00 · Nathan 26.2% · guest 73.8%21:00 · Nathan 18.4% · guest 81.6%21:00 · Nathan 18.4% · guest 81.6%24:00 · Nathan 73% · guest 27%24:00 · Nathan 73% · guest 27%27:00 · Nathan 34.5% · guest 65.5%27:00 · Nathan 34.5% · guest 65.5%30:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%30:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%33:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%33:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 27:32 Rejecting 'fake it till you make it'

Holiday forcefully rejects the conventional startup trope of faking competence, challenging whether anyone would ever accept a doctor or firefighter operating under that premise.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 12:58 Challenging the premise as a marketing gimmick

Latka directly confronts Holiday on whether he genuinely believes ego is the enemy or simply manufactured a polarizing hook to drive book sales.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:24 Correcting Latka on royalty structures

Holiday educates Latka on standard publishing accounting, clarifying that taking a smaller advance does not alter earned royalties because advances are merely pre-payments against sales.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 17:16 Latka defends future framing in sales pitches

Latka pushes back on Holiday's critique of pre-credit by emphasizing the sharp semantic distinction between claiming one 'has' achieved a metric versus promising one 'will' achieve it.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Ryan Holiday's Early Career, Mentors, and First Publishing Deals 4324 Latka digs aggressively into Holiday's financial figures, questioning his book advances and publishing deal economics. Holiday politely clarifies how his publishing trajectory and early media controversies worked.
Stoic Philosophy, Book Royalties, and Financial Independence 3622 Latka assumes a smaller upfront advance warrants higher royalty rates, but Holiday corrects him on the fundamental mechanics of publishing advances versus backend royalties.
Defining Ego, Confidence, and Delusion in "Ego Is the Enemy" 4545 Latka challenges the book's core premise, asserting that he loves his ego and questioning whether Holiday chose the title purely for sensationalist marketing. Holiday responds by defining the critical boundary between confidence and delusional arrogance.
Nathan's Podcast Pitch and the Psychological Trap of Pre-Credit 3744 Latka uses his own promotional tactic of promising a million podcast downloads as a defense of ego. Holiday breaks down the psychological danger of claiming premature credit and relying on illusion rather than sustained output.
Historical Demagogues, Unchecked Ambition, and False Passion 3633 Latka shares his ambition to run for president by brainwashing himself into confidence, prompting Holiday to diagnose the pathology of demagogues and dismantle the myth that Steve Jobs and Kanye West succeeded because of their egos.
Mid-Episode Commercial Break: Austin Live Event and HostGator Promotion 3543 After an ad break, Latka defends the necessity of articulating ambitious goals beforehand, while Holiday attacks the 'fake it till you make it' mindset using analogies of doctors and firefighters.
Fear as a Poor Advisor, Demagogues, and Book Launch Announcement 3643 Latka suggests Donald Trump effectively harnesses fear as a political weapon, which Holiday refutes by noting historical demagogues invariably destroy themselves in the long run.

Statements from this episode (8)

Disclosure
Holiday: Penguin paid a $250,000 advance for his first book
“A quarter of a million dollars.”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 3:51
Disclosure
Holiday issued a fake press release doubling his book advance to $500,000
“And then the first thing I did was I took that, and I put out a press release that said I'd sold it for a half a million dollars, because I wanted to illustrate how, like, people just trust whatever is in a press release.”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 4:21
Disclosure
Holiday earned mid-six figures in total from Growth Hacker Marketing
“I've now, I would have made, you know, mid six figures at this point on, all in on that book, even though it started really small.”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 5:45
Insight
Holiday: Effective marketing requires attacking a sacred cow
“Part of successful marketing and copywriting is picking a sacred cow and slaying it, right? And attacking some commonly held or sacred belief.”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 12:42
Disclosure
Latka: Promising 1M summer downloads was the only successful guest pitch
“The only way I could get guests of any meaningful value, and I tested many subject lines and many pitches, was to say, this podcast will have a million downloads by the end of the summer.”
Nathan Latka Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 15:11
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Holiday in 2016: Trump's campaign tactics will make him a horrible president
“What's made Donald Trump a great campaigner will ultimately make him a horrible president, and maybe even make it impossible for him to actually become president, because he is not actually aware of why what he's doing is working, right?”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 20:41
Opinion
Holiday: Steve Jobs deserved to be fired from Apple in 1985
“So you look at someone like Steve Jobs, like, look, he was fired by Apple, and he deserved to be fired. He was horrible. If you were John Scully. You would have fired Steve Jobs. Because he wasn't delivering on sales, and he was unmanageable, and he was destro…”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 23:07
Disclosure
Holiday refuses to announce projects publicly until they are completed
“So, so personally, I'm someone who, I don't articulate what I'm going to do except to myself or, you know, to like a close group of people. I don't want to get reputational advantages from what I'm theoretically going to do. I want to get credit for them when …”
Ryan Holiday Jun 20, 2016 ▶ 27:55
Made with StarZero

Turn any episode into a week of clips.

This entire site, over 2,600 episodes transcribed, diarized, checked and made playable, runs on the StarZero media pipeline. Drop in your own episode and the podcast clipper finds the moments worth sharing, cuts them, captions them, and reframes them for every feed.

Try the podcast clipper Learn more