Dec 12, 2017 · 23m · top-founders

871 Which is Smarter: Buying vs Starting Companies

Nathan Latka · 10m spoken J.D. Graffam · 9m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of The Top Entrepreneurs, host Nathan Latka interviews Simple Focus founder J.D. Graffam, who details his strategy for acquiring profitable, plateaued micro-SaaS businesses generating $750,000 in ARR at 60% to 80% net cash flow margins under a permanent buy-and-hold model.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 54.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 3.7 Guest disagreement 3.2 Nathan pushing back 3.7
05100:0010:0020:000:00–3:25 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Host Welcome and GetLatka.com Data Platform Promotion Nathan frames J.D. as a SaaS flipper, which J.D. quickly corrects by explaining he holds onto acquisitions. J.D. also dismisses standard EBITDA metrics as irrelevant for sub-500k apps and rejects Nathan's hypothetical staffed deal.3:26–6:01 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Curated Acquisition Story and Sourcing Micro-SaaS Deals J.D. details how he acquired Curated from Litmus through founder network referrals. Nathan intervenes to clarify the timeline and confirm Litmus's business model before letting J.D. continue.6:01–8:58 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Evaluating Uncomplicated CRUD Apps and Organic Footer Growth Nathan misinterprets J.D.'s revenue disclosure and mistakenly asserts that J.D. doubled revenue to 140k monthly. J.D. directly corrects him, clarifying that 140k is annual revenue and that he does not rush to force growth early on.9:02–13:40 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Message: Automating Sales Data with ProsperWorks CRM Nathan bluntly calls J.D. boring, prompting J.D. to stop the conversation and explicitly address how he plans to manage Nathan's fast-paced interviewing style. J.D. then corrects Nathan's portfolio revenue estimate from 1.2M down to 750k.13:41–18:14 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Agency Synergies, SaaS Portfolio Operations, and Buy-and-Hold Philosophy Nathan proposes a detailed agency-synergy thesis, which J.D. rejects by explaining his products serve peer agencies rather than agency clients. Nathan then structures a live buyout proposal on air, but J.D. defends his long-term buy-and-hold ethos.18:17–22:26 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Sponsor Message: Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses from Casper The segment features an ad read followed by the standard Famous Five questions. J.D. gives concise answers, noting he listened to prior episodes as recon.0:00–3:25 · Guest teaching 4/10 Host Welcome and GetLatka.com Data Platform Promotion Nathan frames J.D. as a SaaS flipper, which J.D. quickly corrects by explaining he holds onto acquisitions. J.D. also dismisses standard EBITDA metrics as irrelevant for sub-500k apps and rejects Nathan's hypothetical staffed deal.3:26–6:01 · Guest teaching 3/10 The Curated Acquisition Story and Sourcing Micro-SaaS Deals J.D. details how he acquired Curated from Litmus through founder network referrals. Nathan intervenes to clarify the timeline and confirm Litmus's business model before letting J.D. continue.6:01–8:58 · Guest teaching 5/10 Evaluating Uncomplicated CRUD Apps and Organic Footer Growth Nathan misinterprets J.D.'s revenue disclosure and mistakenly asserts that J.D. doubled revenue to 140k monthly. J.D. directly corrects him, clarifying that 140k is annual revenue and that he does not rush to force growth early on.9:02–13:40 · Guest teaching 3/10 Sponsor Message: Automating Sales Data with ProsperWorks CRM Nathan bluntly calls J.D. boring, prompting J.D. to stop the conversation and explicitly address how he plans to manage Nathan's fast-paced interviewing style. J.D. then corrects Nathan's portfolio revenue estimate from 1.2M down to 750k.13:41–18:14 · Guest teaching 5/10 Agency Synergies, SaaS Portfolio Operations, and Buy-and-Hold Philosophy Nathan proposes a detailed agency-synergy thesis, which J.D. rejects by explaining his products serve peer agencies rather than agency clients. Nathan then structures a live buyout proposal on air, but J.D. defends his long-term buy-and-hold ethos.18:17–22:26 · Guest teaching 2/10 Sponsor Message: Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses from Casper The segment features an ad read followed by the standard Famous Five questions. J.D. gives concise answers, noting he listened to prior episodes as recon.0:00–3:25 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Host Welcome and GetLatka.com Data Platform Promotion Nathan frames J.D. as a SaaS flipper, which J.D. quickly corrects by explaining he holds onto acquisitions. J.D. also dismisses standard EBITDA metrics as irrelevant for sub-500k apps and rejects Nathan's hypothetical staffed deal.3:26–6:01 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Curated Acquisition Story and Sourcing Micro-SaaS Deals J.D. details how he acquired Curated from Litmus through founder network referrals. Nathan intervenes to clarify the timeline and confirm Litmus's business model before letting J.D. continue.6:01–8:58 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Evaluating Uncomplicated CRUD Apps and Organic Footer Growth Nathan misinterprets J.D.'s revenue disclosure and mistakenly asserts that J.D. doubled revenue to 140k monthly. J.D. directly corrects him, clarifying that 140k is annual revenue and that he does not rush to force growth early on.9:02–13:40 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Sponsor Message: Automating Sales Data with ProsperWorks CRM Nathan bluntly calls J.D. boring, prompting J.D. to stop the conversation and explicitly address how he plans to manage Nathan's fast-paced interviewing style. J.D. then corrects Nathan's portfolio revenue estimate from 1.2M down to 750k.13:41–18:14 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Agency Synergies, SaaS Portfolio Operations, and Buy-and-Hold Philosophy Nathan proposes a detailed agency-synergy thesis, which J.D. rejects by explaining his products serve peer agencies rather than agency clients. Nathan then structures a live buyout proposal on air, but J.D. defends his long-term buy-and-hold ethos.18:17–22:26 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sponsor Message: Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses from Casper The segment features an ad read followed by the standard Famous Five questions. J.D. gives concise answers, noting he listened to prior episodes as recon.0:00–3:25 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Host Welcome and GetLatka.com Data Platform Promotion Nathan frames J.D. as a SaaS flipper, which J.D. quickly corrects by explaining he holds onto acquisitions. J.D. also dismisses standard EBITDA metrics as irrelevant for sub-500k apps and rejects Nathan's hypothetical staffed deal.3:26–6:01 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 The Curated Acquisition Story and Sourcing Micro-SaaS Deals J.D. details how he acquired Curated from Litmus through founder network referrals. Nathan intervenes to clarify the timeline and confirm Litmus's business model before letting J.D. continue.6:01–8:58 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Evaluating Uncomplicated CRUD Apps and Organic Footer Growth Nathan misinterprets J.D.'s revenue disclosure and mistakenly asserts that J.D. doubled revenue to 140k monthly. J.D. directly corrects him, clarifying that 140k is annual revenue and that he does not rush to force growth early on.9:02–13:40 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Sponsor Message: Automating Sales Data with ProsperWorks CRM Nathan bluntly calls J.D. boring, prompting J.D. to stop the conversation and explicitly address how he plans to manage Nathan's fast-paced interviewing style. J.D. then corrects Nathan's portfolio revenue estimate from 1.2M down to 750k.13:41–18:14 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Agency Synergies, SaaS Portfolio Operations, and Buy-and-Hold Philosophy Nathan proposes a detailed agency-synergy thesis, which J.D. rejects by explaining his products serve peer agencies rather than agency clients. Nathan then structures a live buyout proposal on air, but J.D. defends his long-term buy-and-hold ethos.18:17–22:26 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Sponsor Message: Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses from Casper The segment features an ad read followed by the standard Famous Five questions. J.D. gives concise answers, noting he listened to prior episodes as recon.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 77.2% · guest 22.8%0:00 · Nathan 77.2% · guest 22.8%3:00 · Nathan 17.5% · guest 82.5%3:00 · Nathan 17.5% · guest 82.5%6:00 · Nathan 32.2% · guest 67.8%6:00 · Nathan 32.2% · guest 67.8%9:00 · Nathan 79.9% · guest 20.1%9:00 · Nathan 79.9% · guest 20.1%12:00 · Nathan 56% · guest 44%12:00 · Nathan 56% · guest 44%15:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%15:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%18:00 · Nathan 85.5% · guest 14.5%18:00 · Nathan 85.5% · guest 14.5%21:00 · Nathan 48.8% · guest 51.2%21:00 · Nathan 48.8% · guest 51.2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 10:46 J.D. halts Nathan's monologue to set boundaries

After Nathan bluntly calls him boring, J.D. interrupts Nathan's line of questioning to address his fast-talking style directly and assert his own deliberate demeanor.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 7:38 Nathan presses on revenue growth claims

Nathan challenges J.D.'s metrics by asserting he must have doubled the business, forcing J.D. to firmly clarify the distinction between annual and monthly numbers.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 14:36 J.D. dismantles Nathan's agency playbook assumption

Nathan delivers an elaborate theory on how agency owners build software for their clients, but J.D. flatly refutes it, explaining he builds 'for us by us' tools targeting peer agency owners instead.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 16:24 Nathan pitches an on-air equity buyout structure

Nathan showcases financial sophistication by calculating cash yields and proposing a structured partial acquisition of Curated on air.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Host Welcome and GetLatka.com Data Platform Promotion 5433 Nathan frames J.D. as a SaaS flipper, which J.D. quickly corrects by explaining he holds onto acquisitions. J.D. also dismisses standard EBITDA metrics as irrelevant for sub-500k apps and rejects Nathan's hypothetical staffed deal.
The Curated Acquisition Story and Sourcing Micro-SaaS Deals 4313 J.D. details how he acquired Curated from Litmus through founder network referrals. Nathan intervenes to clarify the timeline and confirm Litmus's business model before letting J.D. continue.
Evaluating Uncomplicated CRUD Apps and Organic Footer Growth 4544 Nathan misinterprets J.D.'s revenue disclosure and mistakenly asserts that J.D. doubled revenue to 140k monthly. J.D. directly corrects him, clarifying that 140k is annual revenue and that he does not rush to force growth early on.
Sponsor Message: Automating Sales Data with ProsperWorks CRM 5354 Nathan bluntly calls J.D. boring, prompting J.D. to stop the conversation and explicitly address how he plans to manage Nathan's fast-paced interviewing style. J.D. then corrects Nathan's portfolio revenue estimate from 1.2M down to 750k.
Agency Synergies, SaaS Portfolio Operations, and Buy-and-Hold Philosophy 6545 Nathan proposes a detailed agency-synergy thesis, which J.D. rejects by explaining his products serve peer agencies rather than agency clients. Nathan then structures a live buyout proposal on air, but J.D. defends his long-term buy-and-hold ethos.
Sponsor Message: Direct-to-Consumer Mattresses from Casper 3223 The segment features an ad read followed by the standard Famous Five questions. J.D. gives concise answers, noting he listened to prior episodes as recon.

Statements from this episode (9)

Disclosure
Graffam only acquires profitable SaaS making $100K–$500K with zero staff
“I'm not going to buy anything that's not profitable, which means it doesn't come with a staff. It doesn't come with any significant overhead. What I'm not looking for is anything under a 100,000 dollars a year. So that's my range. A hundred to 500.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 2:34
Disclosure
Graffam prefers stable, plateaued software businesses over high-growth startups
“I place more of a value and emphasis on something that has stabilized or plateaued that's not shrinking than I do on something that's got one of those sharp growth curves.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 6:40
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Curated generates approximately $140,000 in annual revenue
“Well, I could pull exact numbers, but I'm going to approximate around a 140,000 dollars a year.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 7:27
Disclosure
Graffam waits two to three years post-acquisition before driving growth
“It's year two or three before I really start focusing on taking the product in a new direction or trying to grow it heavily.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 8:23
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Footer branding is the best customer referral source for Curated
“We've got our branding in the footer. That's been the best source of referrals for us.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 8:40
Disclosure
Graffam's micro-SaaS portfolio generates $750,000 in recurring revenue
“I've got 750 in recurring revenue.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 11:36
Disclosure
Graffam's micro-SaaS apps deliver 60% to 80% net cash flow returns
“The returns I get on these apps are between 16, 80%.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 13:11
Disclosure
Graffam's agency business covers payroll and dwarfs his software apps
“I've got the agencies going as well, and they're much bigger than the apps. That's where the payroll gets made.”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 13:31
Disclosure
Graffam will not sell individual apps, only his entire portfolio
“I'm buying these for the long term and somebody wants to come by a controlling stake and make that type of investment where, where I can still be running the products and still be cash flowing them and get some sort of liquidity event. Then I'll consider that,…”
J.D. Graffam Dec 12, 2017 ▶ 16:56
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