Mar 1, 2018 · 21m · top-founders

950 How Clickfunnels Grew From $14m to $60m in ARR in 18 Months

Nathan Latka · 8m spoken Russell Brunson · 7m spoken Todd Dickerson · 3m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

ClickFunnels co-founders Russell Brunson and Todd Dickerson join Nathan Latka to break down how they bootstrapped their SaaS company from $14 million to $60 million in ARR within eighteen months. The interview details their negative-CAC acquisition funnels, lean engineering operations, churn reduction milestones, and founder-first profitability model.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 45.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 6.1 Guest teaching 2.9 Guest disagreement 1.4 Nathan pushing back 3.1
05100:0010:0020:000:49–3:20 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 The Origin Story and Founding Partnership of ClickFunnels Nathan introduces the founders and prompts them on the founding story, technical partnership dynamics, and bootstrapping origins. The tone is highly collaborative and conversational.3:20–5:44 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Bootstrapping to Sixty Million in Annual Recurring Revenue Nathan recaps historical data from their prior interview 18 months earlier and does quick calculations on current ARR and MRR. He probes why they sell one-off coaching when pure SaaS margins are higher.5:44–8:35 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Lean Engineering Teams and Customer Churn Management Nathan cites his proprietary benchmark of $137k revenue per employee across 1,000 SaaS CEOs to highlight ClickFunnels' efficiency. He then drills into monthly logo churn mechanics.8:38–13:35 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Sponsor Break and Acuity Scheduling Free Trial Promotion Nathan references Facebook onboarding retention metrics to probe activation milestones. When Todd mentions running unsuccessful front-end tests, Nathan repeatedly pushes him to name a specific failed experiment.13:36–17:46 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Acquisition Economics, Book Funnels, and Viral Badges Russell explains how self-liquidating book funnels provide negative CAC, reframing conventional VC customer acquisition metrics. Nathan challenges why they do not spend more aggressively on CAC given massive customer lifetime value.17:47–19:51 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Lifestyle Reinvestment, Asset Allocation, and Hedging Strategies Nathan questions why bootstrapped founders extract profit distributions rather than compounding capital inside their highest-yield asset. Russell and Todd defend their decisions using lifestyle ROI and economic hedging logic.19:52–21:40 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 The Famous Five Questions and Episode Conclusion Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and summarizes the company's key growth metrics in the outro.0:49–3:20 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Origin Story and Founding Partnership of ClickFunnels Nathan introduces the founders and prompts them on the founding story, technical partnership dynamics, and bootstrapping origins. The tone is highly collaborative and conversational.3:20–5:44 · Guest teaching 3/10 Bootstrapping to Sixty Million in Annual Recurring Revenue Nathan recaps historical data from their prior interview 18 months earlier and does quick calculations on current ARR and MRR. He probes why they sell one-off coaching when pure SaaS margins are higher.5:44–8:35 · Guest teaching 3/10 Lean Engineering Teams and Customer Churn Management Nathan cites his proprietary benchmark of $137k revenue per employee across 1,000 SaaS CEOs to highlight ClickFunnels' efficiency. He then drills into monthly logo churn mechanics.8:38–13:35 · Guest teaching 2/10 Sponsor Break and Acuity Scheduling Free Trial Promotion Nathan references Facebook onboarding retention metrics to probe activation milestones. When Todd mentions running unsuccessful front-end tests, Nathan repeatedly pushes him to name a specific failed experiment.13:36–17:46 · Guest teaching 5/10 Acquisition Economics, Book Funnels, and Viral Badges Russell explains how self-liquidating book funnels provide negative CAC, reframing conventional VC customer acquisition metrics. Nathan challenges why they do not spend more aggressively on CAC given massive customer lifetime value.17:47–19:51 · Guest teaching 4/10 Lifestyle Reinvestment, Asset Allocation, and Hedging Strategies Nathan questions why bootstrapped founders extract profit distributions rather than compounding capital inside their highest-yield asset. Russell and Todd defend their decisions using lifestyle ROI and economic hedging logic.19:52–21:40 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Questions and Episode Conclusion Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and summarizes the company's key growth metrics in the outro.0:49–3:20 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Origin Story and Founding Partnership of ClickFunnels Nathan introduces the founders and prompts them on the founding story, technical partnership dynamics, and bootstrapping origins. The tone is highly collaborative and conversational.3:20–5:44 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Bootstrapping to Sixty Million in Annual Recurring Revenue Nathan recaps historical data from their prior interview 18 months earlier and does quick calculations on current ARR and MRR. He probes why they sell one-off coaching when pure SaaS margins are higher.5:44–8:35 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Lean Engineering Teams and Customer Churn Management Nathan cites his proprietary benchmark of $137k revenue per employee across 1,000 SaaS CEOs to highlight ClickFunnels' efficiency. He then drills into monthly logo churn mechanics.8:38–13:35 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sponsor Break and Acuity Scheduling Free Trial Promotion Nathan references Facebook onboarding retention metrics to probe activation milestones. When Todd mentions running unsuccessful front-end tests, Nathan repeatedly pushes him to name a specific failed experiment.13:36–17:46 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Acquisition Economics, Book Funnels, and Viral Badges Russell explains how self-liquidating book funnels provide negative CAC, reframing conventional VC customer acquisition metrics. Nathan challenges why they do not spend more aggressively on CAC given massive customer lifetime value.17:47–19:51 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Lifestyle Reinvestment, Asset Allocation, and Hedging Strategies Nathan questions why bootstrapped founders extract profit distributions rather than compounding capital inside their highest-yield asset. Russell and Todd defend their decisions using lifestyle ROI and economic hedging logic.19:52–21:40 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five Questions and Episode Conclusion Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and summarizes the company's key growth metrics in the outro.0:49–3:20 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Origin Story and Founding Partnership of ClickFunnels Nathan introduces the founders and prompts them on the founding story, technical partnership dynamics, and bootstrapping origins. The tone is highly collaborative and conversational.3:20–5:44 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Bootstrapping to Sixty Million in Annual Recurring Revenue Nathan recaps historical data from their prior interview 18 months earlier and does quick calculations on current ARR and MRR. He probes why they sell one-off coaching when pure SaaS margins are higher.5:44–8:35 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Lean Engineering Teams and Customer Churn Management Nathan cites his proprietary benchmark of $137k revenue per employee across 1,000 SaaS CEOs to highlight ClickFunnels' efficiency. He then drills into monthly logo churn mechanics.8:38–13:35 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Sponsor Break and Acuity Scheduling Free Trial Promotion Nathan references Facebook onboarding retention metrics to probe activation milestones. When Todd mentions running unsuccessful front-end tests, Nathan repeatedly pushes him to name a specific failed experiment.13:36–17:46 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Acquisition Economics, Book Funnels, and Viral Badges Russell explains how self-liquidating book funnels provide negative CAC, reframing conventional VC customer acquisition metrics. Nathan challenges why they do not spend more aggressively on CAC given massive customer lifetime value.17:47–19:51 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Lifestyle Reinvestment, Asset Allocation, and Hedging Strategies Nathan questions why bootstrapped founders extract profit distributions rather than compounding capital inside their highest-yield asset. Russell and Todd defend their decisions using lifestyle ROI and economic hedging logic.19:52–21:40 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Questions and Episode Conclusion Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and summarizes the company's key growth metrics in the outro.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 58.9% · guest 41.1%0:00 · Nathan 58.9% · guest 41.1%3:00 · Nathan 45% · guest 55%3:00 · Nathan 45% · guest 55%6:00 · Nathan 39.8% · guest 60.2%6:00 · Nathan 39.8% · guest 60.2%9:00 · Nathan 62.3% · guest 37.7%9:00 · Nathan 62.3% · guest 37.7%12:00 · Nathan 33.3% · guest 66.7%12:00 · Nathan 33.3% · guest 66.7%15:00 · Nathan 39.2% · guest 60.8%15:00 · Nathan 39.2% · guest 60.8%18:00 · Nathan 34.6% · guest 65.4%18:00 · Nathan 34.6% · guest 65.4%21:00 · Nathan 76.8% · guest 23.2%21:00 · Nathan 76.8% · guest 23.2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:06 Russell rejects traditional corporate reinvestment for owner distributions

Russell candidly dismisses standard VC growth theory, arguing that business exists to make the owners rich and taking massive monthly profit distributions is preferable to chasing higher CAC.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 12:25 Nathan demands a specific example of a failed onboarding test

When Todd claims they ran front-end conversion tests that failed, Nathan cuts in with 'Name one' and refuses to let the vague assertion slide until Todd admits he cannot recall one immediately.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 13:41 Russell educates on profitable front-end book acquisition funnels

Russell breaks down how spending $10 to $12 to sell a book generates $30 to $35 upfront, funneling profitable users into SaaS subscriptions without paying traditional software CAC.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 6:35 Nathan compares company metrics to his database of 1,000 SaaS CEOs

Nathan demonstrates deep domain authority by citing his empirical SaaS benchmark of $137k ARR per employee across 1,000 founders to evaluate ClickFunnels' lean headcount.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
The Origin Story and Founding Partnership of ClickFunnels 5211 Nathan introduces the founders and prompts them on the founding story, technical partnership dynamics, and bootstrapping origins. The tone is highly collaborative and conversational.
Bootstrapping to Sixty Million in Annual Recurring Revenue 7313 Nathan recaps historical data from their prior interview 18 months earlier and does quick calculations on current ARR and MRR. He probes why they sell one-off coaching when pure SaaS margins are higher.
Lean Engineering Teams and Customer Churn Management 7313 Nathan cites his proprietary benchmark of $137k revenue per employee across 1,000 SaaS CEOs to highlight ClickFunnels' efficiency. He then drills into monthly logo churn mechanics.
Sponsor Break and Acuity Scheduling Free Trial Promotion 6225 Nathan references Facebook onboarding retention metrics to probe activation milestones. When Todd mentions running unsuccessful front-end tests, Nathan repeatedly pushes him to name a specific failed experiment.
Acquisition Economics, Book Funnels, and Viral Badges 7535 Russell explains how self-liquidating book funnels provide negative CAC, reframing conventional VC customer acquisition metrics. Nathan challenges why they do not spend more aggressively on CAC given massive customer lifetime value.
Lifestyle Reinvestment, Asset Allocation, and Hedging Strategies 6424 Nathan questions why bootstrapped founders extract profit distributions rather than compounding capital inside their highest-yield asset. Russell and Todd defend their decisions using lifestyle ROI and economic hedging logic.
The Famous Five Questions and Episode Conclusion 5101 Nathan runs through his standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions and summarizes the company's key growth metrics in the outro.

Statements from this episode (13)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Brunson: Bootstrapped ClickFunnels was profitable from day one
“And then we were profitable from day one and we've been extremely profitable since then.”
Russell Brunson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 3:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Dickerson: ClickFunnels generates $60M ARR purely from direct software subscriptions
“Right at it. And that doesn't include a lot of the one-off sales. We do a lot of coaching programs and whatnot on the back end as well. But when it comes to just directly from the software, yeah.”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 4:39
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Dickerson: ClickFunnels runs with 15 engineers and 80 support staff
“We're only about 15 guys on the engineering team. We have a huge support team at this point. Probably about 80 people.”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 5:58
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Dickerson: ClickFunnels sustains roughly 10% monthly churn
“Our overall churn is about 10%, which is, I know that sounds high.”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 7:45
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Dickerson: ClickFunnels sees almost zero churn from customers past one year
“From about a year on, we have almost no churn. So once customers are actually using us and actually having success with us, it ends up being very low, but upfront, that's the initial part that we've been focusing on and working really hard on.”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 8:23
Disclosure
Brunson: Paying for users' custom domains dramatically reduces churn
“So one of them, we found out if they set up a custom domain, like their likelihood of, I don't know exact numbers, it drops dramatically. So now when you go through our onboarding process, first thing we do is we actually, we set the first domain for them and …”
Russell Brunson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 10:31
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Brunson: Giving free t-shirts for watching a demo slashed churn
“One of the biggest things we did initially to decrease churn is when someone kind of came on and was like, hey, here's the 13 minute demo video showing you how to use the software. If you watch it, we'll send you a free t-shirt. And that alone dropped churn by…”
Russell Brunson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 11:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Brunson: ClickFunnels makes $30-$35 per book customer on $10-$12 ad spend
“So we'll spend anywhere from 10 to 12 bucks on Facebook to acquire a book customer, but we'll make 30 to 35 dollars to the book funnel. So we actually are profitable up front and then we introduce that person to ClickFunnels.”
Russell Brunson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 14:12
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Dickerson: ClickFunnels generates over $1M monthly from viral footer badges
“I know that at this point, over a million dollars a month comes in just from that badge.”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 14:54
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Dickerson: Upfront front-end sales reduce net CAC to effectively zero
“Our all-in cost to acquire customers is about a 130 dollars at this point. But like Russell said, we don't really even look at it that way because that, that upfront media spin that last month was about a 130. So that upfront media spin that was really paid ba…”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 15:14
Insight
Brunson: The only purpose of a business is making its owners rich
“The only purpose of a business is to make the owners rich. And so like, I kind of believe that, like if you do that, then it creates jobs, it creates all these other things.”
Russell Brunson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 17:30
Insight
Dickerson: External investments are treated as insurance against economic downturns
“I view the business as our, ours, our green fund, right? Like that's what we're going to do under best case scenario. And when it comes to investing and pulling money out, that's more of a insurance policy kind of thing. So any investments that we make in that…”
Todd Dickerson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 19:24
Disclosure
Brunson: ClickFunnels would consider acquisition offers starting at $1 billion
“So that would probably be the number that we'd start. We start being interested in that.”
Russell Brunson Mar 1, 2018 ▶ 20:27
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