Nov 25, 2018 · 21m · top-founders

1219 Will Prosperworks and it's 10,000 Paying Customers Win CRM Wars?

John Lee · 12m spoken Nathan Latka · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this interview with Nathan Latka, ProsperWorks founder and CEO John Lee explains how his 'zero-input' CRM platform scaled to over 100,000 paid seats, raised $87 million, and achieved 117% net revenue retention. Lee details the company's native G Suite integration, upmarket unit economics, and competitive strategy for disrupting legacy incumbents like Salesforce.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 33.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 6.6 Guest teaching 4.0 Guest disagreement 3.3 Nathan pushing back 5.7
05100:0010:0020:001:31–4:12 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Guest Welcome and ProsperWorks Headcount Growth Nathan establishes historical context by tracking ProsperWorks' headcount growth from 67 to 210 employees. John explains his thesis on transitioning into the relationship era in an agreeable, presentation-style manner.4:12–6:19 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Zero-Input CRM Architecture and G Suite Integration Nathan cuts through broad marketing claims to ask for specific technical workflows differentiating ProsperWorks from competitors like HubSpot. John explains zero-input CRM automation and G Suite integration.6:19–8:31 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Capitalization, AI Insights, and Google Partnership Strategy Nathan bluntly challenges why Google wouldn't crush ProsperWorks like a cockroach and build their own CRM. John outlines Google's focus on infrastructure and productivity layers while partnering on business applications.8:31–10:51 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Moving Upmarket: Pricing, ACV, and Unit Economics Nathan probes ARPU expansion and works through unit economics, prompting John to clarify the annual CAC payback arithmetic around an $1,100 acquisition cost. John explains the company's deliberate move upmarket to larger enterprise logos.10:51–14:20 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 Debating Gross Churn vs. Net Revenue Retention Nathan clarifies a past discrepancy between seats and logos before pushing past John's net retention metric to demand gross revenue churn. Nathan cites Constant Contact's public valuation collapse to argue why gross churn cannot be ignored.14:21–18:09 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 Product Stickiness and Golden Onboarding Motions Nathan challenges John's claim of being the fastest-growing CRM in the world and mocks the standard pitch of capturing 1 percent of a massive market. John defends his market thesis using Salesforce's gross churn statistics.18:09–20:59 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 The Famous Five: Reading Body Language and Legacy Ambitions Nathan leverages John's book recommendation on body language to tease him about whether he would sell to Jeff Bezos for $300 million. John adamantly rejects being an acquisition flip and reiterates his goal to build an enduring company.1:31–4:12 · Guest teaching 3/10 Guest Welcome and ProsperWorks Headcount Growth Nathan establishes historical context by tracking ProsperWorks' headcount growth from 67 to 210 employees. John explains his thesis on transitioning into the relationship era in an agreeable, presentation-style manner.4:12–6:19 · Guest teaching 4/10 Zero-Input CRM Architecture and G Suite Integration Nathan cuts through broad marketing claims to ask for specific technical workflows differentiating ProsperWorks from competitors like HubSpot. John explains zero-input CRM automation and G Suite integration.6:19–8:31 · Guest teaching 5/10 Capitalization, AI Insights, and Google Partnership Strategy Nathan bluntly challenges why Google wouldn't crush ProsperWorks like a cockroach and build their own CRM. John outlines Google's focus on infrastructure and productivity layers while partnering on business applications.8:31–10:51 · Guest teaching 3/10 Moving Upmarket: Pricing, ACV, and Unit Economics Nathan probes ARPU expansion and works through unit economics, prompting John to clarify the annual CAC payback arithmetic around an $1,100 acquisition cost. John explains the company's deliberate move upmarket to larger enterprise logos.10:51–14:20 · Guest teaching 4/10 Debating Gross Churn vs. Net Revenue Retention Nathan clarifies a past discrepancy between seats and logos before pushing past John's net retention metric to demand gross revenue churn. Nathan cites Constant Contact's public valuation collapse to argue why gross churn cannot be ignored.14:21–18:09 · Guest teaching 5/10 Product Stickiness and Golden Onboarding Motions Nathan challenges John's claim of being the fastest-growing CRM in the world and mocks the standard pitch of capturing 1 percent of a massive market. John defends his market thesis using Salesforce's gross churn statistics.18:09–20:59 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Famous Five: Reading Body Language and Legacy Ambitions Nathan leverages John's book recommendation on body language to tease him about whether he would sell to Jeff Bezos for $300 million. John adamantly rejects being an acquisition flip and reiterates his goal to build an enduring company.1:31–4:12 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Guest Welcome and ProsperWorks Headcount Growth Nathan establishes historical context by tracking ProsperWorks' headcount growth from 67 to 210 employees. John explains his thesis on transitioning into the relationship era in an agreeable, presentation-style manner.4:12–6:19 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Zero-Input CRM Architecture and G Suite Integration Nathan cuts through broad marketing claims to ask for specific technical workflows differentiating ProsperWorks from competitors like HubSpot. John explains zero-input CRM automation and G Suite integration.6:19–8:31 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Capitalization, AI Insights, and Google Partnership Strategy Nathan bluntly challenges why Google wouldn't crush ProsperWorks like a cockroach and build their own CRM. John outlines Google's focus on infrastructure and productivity layers while partnering on business applications.8:31–10:51 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Moving Upmarket: Pricing, ACV, and Unit Economics Nathan probes ARPU expansion and works through unit economics, prompting John to clarify the annual CAC payback arithmetic around an $1,100 acquisition cost. John explains the company's deliberate move upmarket to larger enterprise logos.10:51–14:20 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Debating Gross Churn vs. Net Revenue Retention Nathan clarifies a past discrepancy between seats and logos before pushing past John's net retention metric to demand gross revenue churn. Nathan cites Constant Contact's public valuation collapse to argue why gross churn cannot be ignored.14:21–18:09 · Guest disagreement 6/10 Product Stickiness and Golden Onboarding Motions Nathan challenges John's claim of being the fastest-growing CRM in the world and mocks the standard pitch of capturing 1 percent of a massive market. John defends his market thesis using Salesforce's gross churn statistics.18:09–20:59 · Guest disagreement 5/10 The Famous Five: Reading Body Language and Legacy Ambitions Nathan leverages John's book recommendation on body language to tease him about whether he would sell to Jeff Bezos for $300 million. John adamantly rejects being an acquisition flip and reiterates his goal to build an enduring company.1:31–4:12 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Guest Welcome and ProsperWorks Headcount Growth Nathan establishes historical context by tracking ProsperWorks' headcount growth from 67 to 210 employees. John explains his thesis on transitioning into the relationship era in an agreeable, presentation-style manner.4:12–6:19 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Zero-Input CRM Architecture and G Suite Integration Nathan cuts through broad marketing claims to ask for specific technical workflows differentiating ProsperWorks from competitors like HubSpot. John explains zero-input CRM automation and G Suite integration.6:19–8:31 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Capitalization, AI Insights, and Google Partnership Strategy Nathan bluntly challenges why Google wouldn't crush ProsperWorks like a cockroach and build their own CRM. John outlines Google's focus on infrastructure and productivity layers while partnering on business applications.8:31–10:51 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Moving Upmarket: Pricing, ACV, and Unit Economics Nathan probes ARPU expansion and works through unit economics, prompting John to clarify the annual CAC payback arithmetic around an $1,100 acquisition cost. John explains the company's deliberate move upmarket to larger enterprise logos.10:51–14:20 · Nathan pushing back 8/10 Debating Gross Churn vs. Net Revenue Retention Nathan clarifies a past discrepancy between seats and logos before pushing past John's net retention metric to demand gross revenue churn. Nathan cites Constant Contact's public valuation collapse to argue why gross churn cannot be ignored.14:21–18:09 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Product Stickiness and Golden Onboarding Motions Nathan challenges John's claim of being the fastest-growing CRM in the world and mocks the standard pitch of capturing 1 percent of a massive market. John defends his market thesis using Salesforce's gross churn statistics.18:09–20:59 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 The Famous Five: Reading Body Language and Legacy Ambitions Nathan leverages John's book recommendation on body language to tease him about whether he would sell to Jeff Bezos for $300 million. John adamantly rejects being an acquisition flip and reiterates his goal to build an enduring company.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 65.3% · guest 34.7%0:00 · Nathan 65.3% · guest 34.7%3:00 · Nathan 12.1% · guest 87.9%3:00 · Nathan 12.1% · guest 87.9%6:00 · Nathan 12.9% · guest 87.1%6:00 · Nathan 12.9% · guest 87.1%9:00 · Nathan 36% · guest 64%9:00 · Nathan 36% · guest 64%12:00 · Nathan 31.4% · guest 68.6%12:00 · Nathan 31.4% · guest 68.6%15:00 · Nathan 36.7% · guest 63.3%15:00 · Nathan 36.7% · guest 63.3%18:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%18:00 · Nathan 25.3% · guest 74.7%21:00 · Nathan 96.8% · guest 3.2%21:00 · Nathan 96.8% · guest 3.2%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 16:36 Challenging Host to Name Faster Competitors

John pushes back on Nathan's skepticism regarding his growth rate claims by directly demanding that Nathan name which specific CRM CEOs are growing faster.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 12:21 Refusing Net Churn Framing

Nathan refuses to let John hide behind net revenue expansion figures and aggressively presses him to reveal the underlying gross churn rate.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:40 Explaining Google's Cloud Partner Strategy

John educates Nathan on Google's cloud application layer strategy, demonstrating why Google prefers partnering with ProsperWorks rather than developing an in-house CRM.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 12:50 Citing Constant Contact PE Multiple Collapse

Nathan demonstrates deep SaaS market knowledge by citing Constant Contact's earnings calls and how high gross churn ultimately suppressed their public multiple.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Guest Welcome and ProsperWorks Headcount Growth 5312 Nathan establishes historical context by tracking ProsperWorks' headcount growth from 67 to 210 employees. John explains his thesis on transitioning into the relationship era in an agreeable, presentation-style manner.
Zero-Input CRM Architecture and G Suite Integration 6426 Nathan cuts through broad marketing claims to ask for specific technical workflows differentiating ProsperWorks from competitors like HubSpot. John explains zero-input CRM automation and G Suite integration.
Capitalization, AI Insights, and Google Partnership Strategy 6526 Nathan bluntly challenges why Google wouldn't crush ProsperWorks like a cockroach and build their own CRM. John outlines Google's focus on infrastructure and productivity layers while partnering on business applications.
Moving Upmarket: Pricing, ACV, and Unit Economics 7325 Nathan probes ARPU expansion and works through unit economics, prompting John to clarify the annual CAC payback arithmetic around an $1,100 acquisition cost. John explains the company's deliberate move upmarket to larger enterprise logos.
Debating Gross Churn vs. Net Revenue Retention 8458 Nathan clarifies a past discrepancy between seats and logos before pushing past John's net retention metric to demand gross revenue churn. Nathan cites Constant Contact's public valuation collapse to argue why gross churn cannot be ignored.
Product Stickiness and Golden Onboarding Motions 8567 Nathan challenges John's claim of being the fastest-growing CRM in the world and mocks the standard pitch of capturing 1 percent of a massive market. John defends his market thesis using Salesforce's gross churn statistics.
The Famous Five: Reading Body Language and Legacy Ambitions 6456 Nathan leverages John's book recommendation on body language to tease him about whether he would sell to Jeff Bezos for $300 million. John adamantly rejects being an acquisition flip and reiterates his goal to build an enduring company.

Statements from this episode (14)

Disclosure
Lee: Google Is an Investor in and Customer of ProsperWorks
“And Google's an investor. Google's a customer.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 6:16
Disclosure
ProsperWorks has raised $87 million in venture capital
“We have raised a total of eighty seven million in venture financing.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 6:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
ProsperWorks claims a 26% compounded monthly revenue growth rate
“And I think that speaks to the fact that we've grown at a 26% compounded monthly growth rate.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 6:27
Assertion Not checkable as stated
ProsperWorks has surpassed 10,000 paying customers
“We've over 10,000 paying customers.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 6:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lee: ProsperWorks is the fastest-growing CRM in the world
“We are the fastest growing CRM company in the world at this moment.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 6:35
Assertion Supported
Lee: ProsperWorks is the only CRM recommended by Google
“And, you know, to the point of the Google relationship, we are the only CRM that's actually recommended by Google.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 7:26
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lee: ProsperWorks ARPU exceeds $60 per seat monthly
“I'd say it's a little higher than it's a little higher than 60.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 9:18
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lee: ProsperWorks LTV/CAC exceeds 3x with 16-month CAC payback
“So LTV to CAC is greater than three. Our CAC payback is within 16 months.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 10:06
Assertion Not checkable as stated
ProsperWorks sees 116% to 117% net revenue expansion by month 13
“On a net basis, we are actually expanding. So on average every quote, every dollar that comes in, in month one, a month, 13 is about a buck 16 to about 12. Great. But we're seeing net expansion overall. And so that's what's contributing to our rapid growth and…”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 11:57
Opinion
John Lee argues net churn matters far more than gross churn
“Yeah, I think that gross revenue is sort of less important. It always just depends on how you cut it, right? So if you remove infant churn and all of that kind of stuff, so we're not disclosing the gross churn at the moment, but I think the key is basically th…”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 12:30
Assertion Not checkable as stated
87% of ProsperWorks users engage with the product daily
“And I will tell you that the one thing that makes ProsperWorks very unique compared to all CRMs is that 87% of our licenses use ProsperWorks every day. Every day, including the weekend.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 15:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Salesforce implementations cost 1-3x the license fee, says John Lee
“Unlike Salesforce, you're paying One to three times your license fee. You're spending anywhere from one to six months basically implementing Salesforce for your organization.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 15:48
Assertion Supported
Salesforce churns 3% to 9% of annual revenue, estimates John Lee
“Salesforce is churning anywhere from three to nine percent of the revenue a year on a twelve billion dollar business.”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 17:50
Disclosure
Lee: ProsperWorks is not for sale to Amazon for a quick flip
“I, no. Not, I would not sell the Amazon. This is a massive market. I built this company to help bring prosperity to the world, to usher in the relationship era. And I've built and sold three companies in the past. To me, I'm not looking for another flip. I'm l…”
John Lee Nov 25, 2018 ▶ 19:06
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