Nov 26, 2018 · 18m · top-founders

1220 How He Shields Himself from SMB Churn with 1200 Resellers, $2.3m/mo in Revenue

Brendan King · 9m spoken Nathan Latka · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this interview with Nathan Latka, Vendasta CEO Brendan King details how his company reached $2.3 million in monthly revenue with 117% net revenue retention by providing a white-label SaaS platform and wholesale marketplace to over 1,200 reseller partners.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 39.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 6.0 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 1.8 Nathan pushing back 4.0
05100:0010:000:00–3:08 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Episode Preview and Core Metrics Summary Latka opens with an overview of Vendasta's metrics and compares the model to AppDirect. King elaborates on how AppDirect emerged from telecom billing whereas Vendasta originated in the media and print publishing sector.3:08–7:22 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Evolution from Point Solution to Platform and Marketplace Latka presses King on whether Vendasta is a marketplace or a SaaS company, drilling into churn and ARPU numbers. King explains first-order vs second-order revenue and how reseller insulation affects gross versus net churn calculations.7:24–9:52 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Reseller Channel Dynamics, Pricing Markups, and White-Labeling King and Latka discuss reseller channel economics, comparing the approach to HubSpot's partner ecosystem. Latka clarifies the 5x markup split and discusses the strategic choice of remaining 100% white-labeled.9:52–12:01 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Reseller Scale, Customer Cohorts, and $2.3M Monthly Revenue Latka attempts to multiply 1,200 paying resellers by $1,000 ARPU to estimate revenue, but King pushes back, rejecting broad averages due to distinct enterprise and agency cohorts. King then confirms doing $2.3 million in monthly revenue.12:01–16:08 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 Addressing Churn at the Low End with Value-Based Pricing Latka cites Infusionsoft's onboarding fee strategy to counter churn, but King counters with his deer-fence analogy explaining why forced upfront fees increased churn. Latka later pushes back firmly on payback period calculations and CAC cohort allocation.16:08–17:38 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions A collaborative rapid-fire Famous Five round covering favorite business literature, Canadian CEOs, sleep routines, and founding reflections.0:00–3:08 · Guest teaching 3/10 Episode Preview and Core Metrics Summary Latka opens with an overview of Vendasta's metrics and compares the model to AppDirect. King elaborates on how AppDirect emerged from telecom billing whereas Vendasta originated in the media and print publishing sector.3:08–7:22 · Guest teaching 5/10 Evolution from Point Solution to Platform and Marketplace Latka presses King on whether Vendasta is a marketplace or a SaaS company, drilling into churn and ARPU numbers. King explains first-order vs second-order revenue and how reseller insulation affects gross versus net churn calculations.7:24–9:52 · Guest teaching 3/10 Reseller Channel Dynamics, Pricing Markups, and White-Labeling King and Latka discuss reseller channel economics, comparing the approach to HubSpot's partner ecosystem. Latka clarifies the 5x markup split and discusses the strategic choice of remaining 100% white-labeled.9:52–12:01 · Guest teaching 4/10 Reseller Scale, Customer Cohorts, and $2.3M Monthly Revenue Latka attempts to multiply 1,200 paying resellers by $1,000 ARPU to estimate revenue, but King pushes back, rejecting broad averages due to distinct enterprise and agency cohorts. King then confirms doing $2.3 million in monthly revenue.12:01–16:08 · Guest teaching 5/10 Addressing Churn at the Low End with Value-Based Pricing Latka cites Infusionsoft's onboarding fee strategy to counter churn, but King counters with his deer-fence analogy explaining why forced upfront fees increased churn. Latka later pushes back firmly on payback period calculations and CAC cohort allocation.16:08–17:38 · Guest teaching 1/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions A collaborative rapid-fire Famous Five round covering favorite business literature, Canadian CEOs, sleep routines, and founding reflections.0:00–3:08 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Episode Preview and Core Metrics Summary Latka opens with an overview of Vendasta's metrics and compares the model to AppDirect. King elaborates on how AppDirect emerged from telecom billing whereas Vendasta originated in the media and print publishing sector.3:08–7:22 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Evolution from Point Solution to Platform and Marketplace Latka presses King on whether Vendasta is a marketplace or a SaaS company, drilling into churn and ARPU numbers. King explains first-order vs second-order revenue and how reseller insulation affects gross versus net churn calculations.7:24–9:52 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Reseller Channel Dynamics, Pricing Markups, and White-Labeling King and Latka discuss reseller channel economics, comparing the approach to HubSpot's partner ecosystem. Latka clarifies the 5x markup split and discusses the strategic choice of remaining 100% white-labeled.9:52–12:01 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Reseller Scale, Customer Cohorts, and $2.3M Monthly Revenue Latka attempts to multiply 1,200 paying resellers by $1,000 ARPU to estimate revenue, but King pushes back, rejecting broad averages due to distinct enterprise and agency cohorts. King then confirms doing $2.3 million in monthly revenue.12:01–16:08 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Addressing Churn at the Low End with Value-Based Pricing Latka cites Infusionsoft's onboarding fee strategy to counter churn, but King counters with his deer-fence analogy explaining why forced upfront fees increased churn. Latka later pushes back firmly on payback period calculations and CAC cohort allocation.16:08–17:38 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions A collaborative rapid-fire Famous Five round covering favorite business literature, Canadian CEOs, sleep routines, and founding reflections.0:00–3:08 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Episode Preview and Core Metrics Summary Latka opens with an overview of Vendasta's metrics and compares the model to AppDirect. King elaborates on how AppDirect emerged from telecom billing whereas Vendasta originated in the media and print publishing sector.3:08–7:22 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Evolution from Point Solution to Platform and Marketplace Latka presses King on whether Vendasta is a marketplace or a SaaS company, drilling into churn and ARPU numbers. King explains first-order vs second-order revenue and how reseller insulation affects gross versus net churn calculations.7:24–9:52 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Reseller Channel Dynamics, Pricing Markups, and White-Labeling King and Latka discuss reseller channel economics, comparing the approach to HubSpot's partner ecosystem. Latka clarifies the 5x markup split and discusses the strategic choice of remaining 100% white-labeled.9:52–12:01 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Reseller Scale, Customer Cohorts, and $2.3M Monthly Revenue Latka attempts to multiply 1,200 paying resellers by $1,000 ARPU to estimate revenue, but King pushes back, rejecting broad averages due to distinct enterprise and agency cohorts. King then confirms doing $2.3 million in monthly revenue.12:01–16:08 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Addressing Churn at the Low End with Value-Based Pricing Latka cites Infusionsoft's onboarding fee strategy to counter churn, but King counters with his deer-fence analogy explaining why forced upfront fees increased churn. Latka later pushes back firmly on payback period calculations and CAC cohort allocation.16:08–17:38 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions A collaborative rapid-fire Famous Five round covering favorite business literature, Canadian CEOs, sleep routines, and founding reflections.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 61.1% · guest 38.9%0:00 · Nathan 61.1% · guest 38.9%3:00 · Nathan 19.1% · guest 80.9%3:00 · Nathan 19.1% · guest 80.9%6:00 · Nathan 38.3% · guest 61.7%6:00 · Nathan 38.3% · guest 61.7%9:00 · Nathan 39.3% · guest 60.7%9:00 · Nathan 39.3% · guest 60.7%12:00 · Nathan 27.9% · guest 72.1%12:00 · Nathan 27.9% · guest 72.1%15:00 · Nathan 45.8% · guest 54.2%15:00 · Nathan 45.8% · guest 54.2%18:00 · Nathan 98.1% · guest 1.9%18:00 · Nathan 98.1% · guest 1.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 10:31 King rejects simplistic ARPU averages

King directly shuts down Latka's math multiplying 1,200 resellers by $1,000 ARPU, stating firmly that averages are misleading across their varied customer tiers.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 15:01 Latka intervenes to correct payback period logic

Latka cuts in to argue that payback period is a ratio rather than a raw percentage, insisting that CAC and ARPU scale proportionally across cohorts.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:23 King's deer-fence analogy on pricing failure

King reframes Latka's suggestion about upfront professional fees by explaining how gating agencies caused them to jump into oncoming traffic and churn faster.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 6:07 Latka instantly derives expansion rate from churn metrics

Latka immediately isolates the true partner-level numbers and performs mental math to deduce that a 15% gross churn with 117% net retention implies over 30% expansion.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Episode Preview and Core Metrics Summary 6312 Latka opens with an overview of Vendasta's metrics and compares the model to AppDirect. King elaborates on how AppDirect emerged from telecom billing whereas Vendasta originated in the media and print publishing sector.
Evolution from Point Solution to Platform and Marketplace 7526 Latka presses King on whether Vendasta is a marketplace or a SaaS company, drilling into churn and ARPU numbers. King explains first-order vs second-order revenue and how reseller insulation affects gross versus net churn calculations.
Reseller Channel Dynamics, Pricing Markups, and White-Labeling 6313 King and Latka discuss reseller channel economics, comparing the approach to HubSpot's partner ecosystem. Latka clarifies the 5x markup split and discusses the strategic choice of remaining 100% white-labeled.
Reseller Scale, Customer Cohorts, and $2.3M Monthly Revenue 6435 Latka attempts to multiply 1,200 paying resellers by $1,000 ARPU to estimate revenue, but King pushes back, rejecting broad averages due to distinct enterprise and agency cohorts. King then confirms doing $2.3 million in monthly revenue.
Addressing Churn at the Low End with Value-Based Pricing 8537 Latka cites Infusionsoft's onboarding fee strategy to counter churn, but King counters with his deer-fence analogy explaining why forced upfront fees increased churn. Latka later pushes back firmly on payback period calculations and CAC cohort allocation.
Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 3111 A collaborative rapid-fire Famous Five round covering favorite business literature, Canadian CEOs, sleep routines, and founding reflections.

Statements from this episode (14)

Assertion Supported
King: Vendasta integrates 75 third-party products into its SaaS marketplace
“So we've now built a marketplace. We've got about six, 75 other products integrated against it, and we're bringing in some pretty big name brand products into that marketplace.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 3:49
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta has 9 of the top 10 newspapers as partners
“We have nine of the top 10 newspapers and For instance and that's where we started in that space.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 5:01
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta achieves 117 percent net revenue retention
“So we're you know, right now about 17% net negative or said differently.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 5:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta has approximately 15% annual gross revenue churn
“Yeah, it's about 15%.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 6:21
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta paying subscribers average $1,000 per month for subscriptions
“It's over. Yeah, it's over. It's about a thousand bucks a month. And we have lots of different add-ons and things, but the actual subscription is about a thousand bucks a month.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 7:09
Insight
King: SMB software adoption is driven by trusted resellers, not product superiority
“One thing we've come to know is that all products, you know, that are pretty good is the small business is going to rely on the expertise of someone they trust and they're going to, you know, and in any given case, you could argue one product's better than ano…”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 8:07
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta resellers mark up software products 5x on average
“Our the average markup is five X on average. Now that varies dramatically with the model.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 8:34
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta has about 1,200 paying reseller partners
“Paying, so I think yeah, so we just about 1200 right now.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 9:57
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta reaches over 100,000 SMBs monthly through 13,000 reseller salespeople
“Yeah, and it's bigger companies, so I would say, like, we have about 13,000 salespeople in those companies that are using the product to sell to their SMBs, and we're selling to just over a 100,000 SMBs on a monthly basis every month.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 10:09
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Vendasta generated over $2.3 million in revenue last month
“No, I think we, I told you before. So this year we're just, we're about, we just did 2.3 and change last month.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 11:21
Assertion Not checkable as stated
King: Subscriptions comprise about one-third of Vendasta's monthly revenue
“You know so our subscription revenue is growing a little bit faster than some of our other cohorts. Our product revenue is growing too. So, you know Subscriptions about a third of that. And then the rest of it comes from product.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 11:43
Disclosure
King: Vendasta adopted value-based pricing to reduce low-end customer churn
“So what we've actually done in the last six to seven months to mitigate that is we is we started to do what we call value-based pricing. We're at the low end. We actually don't charge as much But there's not that expectation. So they work up into our product, …”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 13:13
Assertion Supported
King: Vendasta has raised about $13 million in equity capital
“So it's about thirteen million dollars.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 14:30
Disclosure
King: Vendasta grew 45% last year and targets 50% growth this year
“So we wanted, if you recall last time we talked, we were going to try to end the year at 48% last year. We actually ended up on 4502. And we hope to get to 50% growth this year.”
Brendan King Nov 26, 2018 ▶ 15:49
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