Dec 2, 2018 · 22m · top-founders

1226 How GrowSumo is Covering Base Expenses While Growing Performance Based Revenue

Luke Swanick · 12m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this interview on The Top Entrepreneurs, GrowSumo co-founder Luke Swanick shares how his Y Combinator-backed startup scaled to 200 enterprise clients with 25 to 35 percent monthly growth through a hybrid SaaS and performance revenue model. Swanick discusses the evolution from a scrappy 48-hour validation experiment to managing massive channel partner ecosystems for brands like QuickBooks and Evernote.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 36% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.3 Guest teaching 2.4 Guest disagreement 1.6 Nathan pushing back 3.9
05100:0010:0020:001:27–3:51 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Luke Swanick's Background and Founding Team Origins Nathan introduces Luke and inquires about his unconventional pivot from building a blues theater to software. Luke openly shares the early origin story of working with his co-founders and finding customer pain points.3:51–6:10 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Validating GrowSumo and Getting into Y Combinator Luke details their initial scrappy validation process, cold-calling hundreds of companies and posting fake logos to drive interest. Nathan validates the scrappiness while keeping the timeline clear.6:10–8:13 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Fundraising Strategy and Founder Mindset Nathan pushes Luke to disclose his total funding and challenges his philosophical stance on keeping numbers humble, pointing out that Luke used big logos to build early credibility.8:14–11:02 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Hybrid Revenue Model and Enterprise Customer Growth Nathan digs into GrowSumo's pricing structure and questions whether listed enterprise logos are real. Luke explains their hybrid model combining monthly base fees with performance revenue.11:06–15:09 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Break: Project Management with Monday.com Following a sponsor read, Nathan returns to the interview to drill into logo churn and network effects. Luke explains why churn remains under two percent due to their value-driven invoicing.15:09–20:23 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Scaling Revenue, Unit Economics, and Global Reseller Expansion Nathan presses aggressively on unit economics, fully weighted CAC, and calculated monthly revenue run-rate. Luke corrects Nathan's math assumptions regarding grandfathered accounts and resists sharing exact top-line revenue figures.20:24–21:59 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation concludes smoothly with the standard rapid-fire questions covering personal habits, books, and founder advice.1:27–3:51 · Guest teaching 2/10 Luke Swanick's Background and Founding Team Origins Nathan introduces Luke and inquires about his unconventional pivot from building a blues theater to software. Luke openly shares the early origin story of working with his co-founders and finding customer pain points.3:51–6:10 · Guest teaching 2/10 Validating GrowSumo and Getting into Y Combinator Luke details their initial scrappy validation process, cold-calling hundreds of companies and posting fake logos to drive interest. Nathan validates the scrappiness while keeping the timeline clear.6:10–8:13 · Guest teaching 2/10 Fundraising Strategy and Founder Mindset Nathan pushes Luke to disclose his total funding and challenges his philosophical stance on keeping numbers humble, pointing out that Luke used big logos to build early credibility.8:14–11:02 · Guest teaching 4/10 Hybrid Revenue Model and Enterprise Customer Growth Nathan digs into GrowSumo's pricing structure and questions whether listed enterprise logos are real. Luke explains their hybrid model combining monthly base fees with performance revenue.11:06–15:09 · Guest teaching 3/10 Sponsor Break: Project Management with Monday.com Following a sponsor read, Nathan returns to the interview to drill into logo churn and network effects. Luke explains why churn remains under two percent due to their value-driven invoicing.15:09–20:23 · Guest teaching 3/10 Scaling Revenue, Unit Economics, and Global Reseller Expansion Nathan presses aggressively on unit economics, fully weighted CAC, and calculated monthly revenue run-rate. Luke corrects Nathan's math assumptions regarding grandfathered accounts and resists sharing exact top-line revenue figures.20:24–21:59 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation concludes smoothly with the standard rapid-fire questions covering personal habits, books, and founder advice.1:27–3:51 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Luke Swanick's Background and Founding Team Origins Nathan introduces Luke and inquires about his unconventional pivot from building a blues theater to software. Luke openly shares the early origin story of working with his co-founders and finding customer pain points.3:51–6:10 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Validating GrowSumo and Getting into Y Combinator Luke details their initial scrappy validation process, cold-calling hundreds of companies and posting fake logos to drive interest. Nathan validates the scrappiness while keeping the timeline clear.6:10–8:13 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Fundraising Strategy and Founder Mindset Nathan pushes Luke to disclose his total funding and challenges his philosophical stance on keeping numbers humble, pointing out that Luke used big logos to build early credibility.8:14–11:02 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Hybrid Revenue Model and Enterprise Customer Growth Nathan digs into GrowSumo's pricing structure and questions whether listed enterprise logos are real. Luke explains their hybrid model combining monthly base fees with performance revenue.11:06–15:09 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Break: Project Management with Monday.com Following a sponsor read, Nathan returns to the interview to drill into logo churn and network effects. Luke explains why churn remains under two percent due to their value-driven invoicing.15:09–20:23 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Scaling Revenue, Unit Economics, and Global Reseller Expansion Nathan presses aggressively on unit economics, fully weighted CAC, and calculated monthly revenue run-rate. Luke corrects Nathan's math assumptions regarding grandfathered accounts and resists sharing exact top-line revenue figures.20:24–21:59 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation concludes smoothly with the standard rapid-fire questions covering personal habits, books, and founder advice.1:27–3:51 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Luke Swanick's Background and Founding Team Origins Nathan introduces Luke and inquires about his unconventional pivot from building a blues theater to software. Luke openly shares the early origin story of working with his co-founders and finding customer pain points.3:51–6:10 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Validating GrowSumo and Getting into Y Combinator Luke details their initial scrappy validation process, cold-calling hundreds of companies and posting fake logos to drive interest. Nathan validates the scrappiness while keeping the timeline clear.6:10–8:13 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Fundraising Strategy and Founder Mindset Nathan pushes Luke to disclose his total funding and challenges his philosophical stance on keeping numbers humble, pointing out that Luke used big logos to build early credibility.8:14–11:02 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Hybrid Revenue Model and Enterprise Customer Growth Nathan digs into GrowSumo's pricing structure and questions whether listed enterprise logos are real. Luke explains their hybrid model combining monthly base fees with performance revenue.11:06–15:09 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Sponsor Break: Project Management with Monday.com Following a sponsor read, Nathan returns to the interview to drill into logo churn and network effects. Luke explains why churn remains under two percent due to their value-driven invoicing.15:09–20:23 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Scaling Revenue, Unit Economics, and Global Reseller Expansion Nathan presses aggressively on unit economics, fully weighted CAC, and calculated monthly revenue run-rate. Luke corrects Nathan's math assumptions regarding grandfathered accounts and resists sharing exact top-line revenue figures.20:24–21:59 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation concludes smoothly with the standard rapid-fire questions covering personal habits, books, and founder advice.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 58.1% · guest 41.9%0:00 · Nathan 58.1% · guest 41.9%3:00 · Nathan 7.8% · guest 92.2%3:00 · Nathan 7.8% · guest 92.2%6:00 · Nathan 21.3% · guest 78.7%6:00 · Nathan 21.3% · guest 78.7%9:00 · Nathan 45.2% · guest 54.8%9:00 · Nathan 45.2% · guest 54.8%12:00 · Nathan 39.7% · guest 60.3%12:00 · Nathan 39.7% · guest 60.3%15:00 · Nathan 33.6% · guest 66.4%15:00 · Nathan 33.6% · guest 66.4%18:00 · Nathan 35.1% · guest 64.9%18:00 · Nathan 35.1% · guest 64.9%21:00 · Nathan 57.5% · guest 42.5%21:00 · Nathan 57.5% · guest 42.5%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 18:32 Luke refutes Nathan's revenue calculation

Luke directly shuts down Nathan's mathematical projection of $300k+ per month by pointing out grandfathered low-fee cohorts and explicitly refusing to provide a bottom revenue figure.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 7:45 Nathan challenges Luke's humility stance

Nathan refuses Luke's explanation about founder modesty, directly pointing out that Luke hypocritically leveraged big brand perceptions when putting up fake Zenefits and Dropbox logos.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 17:00 Luke clarifies customer payback versus CAC payback

Luke corrects Nathan's misunderstanding of the three-and-a-half-month payback period, clarifying that it refers to customer ROI rather than GrowSumo's customer acquisition cost.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 18:45 Nathan calls out easy percentage growth on small bases

Nathan demonstrates analytical rigor by bluntly pointing out that 25-35% month-over-month growth is mathematically trivial if the underlying baseline revenue numbers are tiny.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Luke Swanick's Background and Founding Team Origins 4212 Nathan introduces Luke and inquires about his unconventional pivot from building a blues theater to software. Luke openly shares the early origin story of working with his co-founders and finding customer pain points.
Validating GrowSumo and Getting into Y Combinator 5212 Luke details their initial scrappy validation process, cold-calling hundreds of companies and posting fake logos to drive interest. Nathan validates the scrappiness while keeping the timeline clear.
Fundraising Strategy and Founder Mindset 6225 Nathan pushes Luke to disclose his total funding and challenges his philosophical stance on keeping numbers humble, pointing out that Luke used big logos to build early credibility.
Hybrid Revenue Model and Enterprise Customer Growth 6425 Nathan digs into GrowSumo's pricing structure and questions whether listed enterprise logos are real. Luke explains their hybrid model combining monthly base fees with performance revenue.
Sponsor Break: Project Management with Monday.com 5314 Following a sponsor read, Nathan returns to the interview to drill into logo churn and network effects. Luke explains why churn remains under two percent due to their value-driven invoicing.
Scaling Revenue, Unit Economics, and Global Reseller Expansion 7337 Nathan presses aggressively on unit economics, fully weighted CAC, and calculated monthly revenue run-rate. Luke corrects Nathan's math assumptions regarding grandfathered accounts and resists sharing exact top-line revenue figures.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 4112 The conversation concludes smoothly with the standard rapid-fire questions covering personal habits, books, and founder advice.

Statements from this episode (11)

Insight
Swanick: Nonprofits only invest in software infrastructure after securing grant funding
“And what we found was that the nonprofit space is incredibly finicky. So everyone's kind of waiting for grant funding to come in, and when they get their financing, then they can talk about actually investing in some scalable infrastructure. And it was a hard …”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 2:57
Disclosure
Swanick: GrowSumo Used Fake Logos Like Dropbox to Gain Early Traction
“So they saw that there was nothing on our page, so we threw up fake logos, like, Zenefits was huge at the time, Dropbox, you know, those kinds of companies.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 5:44
Disclosure
Swanick: GrowSumo has raised over $1 million in venture funding
“No, it's over a million.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 6:27
Disclosure
Swanick: Most GrowSumo revenue is base fees, but performance revenue grows faster
“Currently, the majority is coming through the base fee, but the revenue fee is what is growing much, much faster.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 9:10
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Swanick: Evernote has two people managing 10,000 external sales agents
“Evernote literally has two people managing 10,000 external sales agents.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 10:42
Disclosure
Swanick: GrowSumo has roughly 200 customers
“Today, so I don't have a hard number, but I would say just a little north or south of 200.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 10:57
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Swanick: GrowSumo's monthly logo churn is below 2%
“Yeah, so our churn is quite low like very low. ... I would say lower than two percent.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 13:45
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Swanick: GrowSumo has 40,000 partners, with 8,000 active monthly
“I think we have like 40,000 partners, 8000 were active last month.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 14:44
Insight
Swanick: Reseller partner onboarding takes 6 to 12 months to yield returns
“The long tail comes in when you start working with the resellers that require onboarding and you don't really see those returns for six, nine, 12 months.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 14:57
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Swanick: GrowSumo revenue is growing 25% to 35% month-over-month
“We're growing over 25, 35% month over month.”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 18:19
Insight
Swanick: Reading startup books slows founders down through pursuit of perfection
“I read a lot of books on how to start a company early on. And that stuff really kind of slowed me down because you try to be perfect and then you get it out there and it's just not. And I think that that would be the biggest thing was I hesitated a lot until y…”
Luke Swanick Dec 2, 2018 ▶ 21:41
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