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Feb 2, 2019 · 17m · top-founders

1288 $6m in ARR and Net Negative 20% Revenue Churn, How?!

Emily Cushman · 9m spoken Nathan Latka · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Kira Talent founder and CEO Emily Cushman discusses how her company pivoted from corporate recruitment to higher education admissions, scaling to $6 million in ARR with net negative 20% revenue churn through capital-efficient operations.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 43% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 2.8 Guest disagreement 1.5 Nathan pushing back 3.3
05100:0010:001:21–6:18 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Introducing Emily Cushman and Kira Talent's Admissions Solution Nathan questions Emily about Kira Talent's product offering, average contract values, and market segment. He shows domain fluency by quickly calculating her monthly revenue run rate based on customer count and ACV.6:22–11:13 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Nathan Latka on Scaling with Asana After a mid-roll ad read, Nathan presses Emily hard on why she allowed investors to bring in an outside CEO when she was in her early twenties. Emily explains the ecosystem dynamics and investor pressures in Toronto at the time.11:13–16:02 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Financial Metrics, Negative Revenue Churn, and Sales Optimization Nathan drills into key SaaS unit economics including net negative churn, LTV-to-CAC ratios, and payback periods. Emily declines to break down the exact churn decomposition but details her strategy around right-sizing contracts and land-and-expand sales.16:02–17:09 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Emily Cushman Nathan conducts the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions. Emily participates playfully, stating she would advise her younger self never to take VC funding.1:21–6:18 · Guest teaching 3/10 Introducing Emily Cushman and Kira Talent's Admissions Solution Nathan questions Emily about Kira Talent's product offering, average contract values, and market segment. He shows domain fluency by quickly calculating her monthly revenue run rate based on customer count and ACV.6:22–11:13 · Guest teaching 4/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Nathan Latka on Scaling with Asana After a mid-roll ad read, Nathan presses Emily hard on why she allowed investors to bring in an outside CEO when she was in her early twenties. Emily explains the ecosystem dynamics and investor pressures in Toronto at the time.11:13–16:02 · Guest teaching 3/10 Financial Metrics, Negative Revenue Churn, and Sales Optimization Nathan drills into key SaaS unit economics including net negative churn, LTV-to-CAC ratios, and payback periods. Emily declines to break down the exact churn decomposition but details her strategy around right-sizing contracts and land-and-expand sales.16:02–17:09 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Emily Cushman Nathan conducts the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions. Emily participates playfully, stating she would advise her younger self never to take VC funding.1:21–6:18 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Introducing Emily Cushman and Kira Talent's Admissions Solution Nathan questions Emily about Kira Talent's product offering, average contract values, and market segment. He shows domain fluency by quickly calculating her monthly revenue run rate based on customer count and ACV.6:22–11:13 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Nathan Latka on Scaling with Asana After a mid-roll ad read, Nathan presses Emily hard on why she allowed investors to bring in an outside CEO when she was in her early twenties. Emily explains the ecosystem dynamics and investor pressures in Toronto at the time.11:13–16:02 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Financial Metrics, Negative Revenue Churn, and Sales Optimization Nathan drills into key SaaS unit economics including net negative churn, LTV-to-CAC ratios, and payback periods. Emily declines to break down the exact churn decomposition but details her strategy around right-sizing contracts and land-and-expand sales.16:02–17:09 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Emily Cushman Nathan conducts the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions. Emily participates playfully, stating she would advise her younger self never to take VC funding.1:21–6:18 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Introducing Emily Cushman and Kira Talent's Admissions Solution Nathan questions Emily about Kira Talent's product offering, average contract values, and market segment. He shows domain fluency by quickly calculating her monthly revenue run rate based on customer count and ACV.6:22–11:13 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Nathan Latka on Scaling with Asana After a mid-roll ad read, Nathan presses Emily hard on why she allowed investors to bring in an outside CEO when she was in her early twenties. Emily explains the ecosystem dynamics and investor pressures in Toronto at the time.11:13–16:02 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Financial Metrics, Negative Revenue Churn, and Sales Optimization Nathan drills into key SaaS unit economics including net negative churn, LTV-to-CAC ratios, and payback periods. Emily declines to break down the exact churn decomposition but details her strategy around right-sizing contracts and land-and-expand sales.16:02–17:09 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Emily Cushman Nathan conducts the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions. Emily participates playfully, stating she would advise her younger self never to take VC funding.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 66.8% · guest 33.2%0:00 · Nathan 66.8% · guest 33.2%3:00 · Nathan 22.5% · guest 77.5%3:00 · Nathan 22.5% · guest 77.5%6:00 · Nathan 66.2% · guest 33.8%6:00 · Nathan 66.2% · guest 33.8%9:00 · Nathan 18.7% · guest 81.3%9:00 · Nathan 18.7% · guest 81.3%12:00 · Nathan 36.1% · guest 63.9%12:00 · Nathan 36.1% · guest 63.9%15:00 · Nathan 46.3% · guest 53.7%15:00 · Nathan 46.3% · guest 53.7%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 12:36 Refusal to detail churn breakdown

Emily explicitly sets a boundary against breaking down exact expansion versus gross loss numbers, pivoting instead to a qualitative description of their land-and-expand model.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 9:30 Challenging the decision to step aside

Nathan bluntly challenges Emily's past concession to investors, asking why she rolled over instead of walking away from the money.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:36 Educating on early Canadian startup culture

Emily contextualizes the decision to step aside by educating Nathan on the lack of venture maturity and role models in Toronto five to six years earlier.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 14:26 Deconstructing LTV and CAC economics

Nathan immediately calculates the implied $60k lifetime value and allowable $20k customer acquisition cost based on Emily's contract duration and ACV estimates.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Emily Cushman and Kira Talent's Admissions Solution 5312 Nathan questions Emily about Kira Talent's product offering, average contract values, and market segment. He shows domain fluency by quickly calculating her monthly revenue run rate based on customer count and ACV.
Sponsor Spotlight: Nathan Latka on Scaling with Asana 4426 After a mid-roll ad read, Nathan presses Emily hard on why she allowed investors to bring in an outside CEO when she was in her early twenties. Emily explains the ecosystem dynamics and investor pressures in Toronto at the time.
Financial Metrics, Negative Revenue Churn, and Sales Optimization 6324 Nathan drills into key SaaS unit economics including net negative churn, LTV-to-CAC ratios, and payback periods. Emily declines to break down the exact churn decomposition but details her strategy around right-sizing contracts and land-and-expand sales.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Emily Cushman 2111 Nathan conducts the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions. Emily participates playfully, stating she would advise her younger self never to take VC funding.

Statements from this episode (8)

Disclosure
Cushman: Kira Talent's Average ACV Is $20,000 for 1,000 Applicants
“So pretty average is we'll get a program. Maybe it's an MBA program or a master's of finance about a thousand applicants and they'll pay about 20 grand and that's an annual contract value.”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 3:04
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Cushman: Kira Talent has scaled to 300 university campuses
“300.”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 3:58
Assertion Supported
Cushman: Kira Talent raised over $8 million across multiple funding rounds
“We did an angel round of 300,000. We did a seed round of just over two million. And then we actually had a leadership change. So our investors brought in a CEO to come in and run the company for a couple of years. And in that time when we had a different CEO h…”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 8:01
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Cushman: Kira Talent is breakeven and will turn profitable within months
“So now we're operating breakeven. We'll turn to profitability in the next couple months, and it's a whole different way of operating.”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 8:34
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kira Talent grows at approximately 75% year-over-year
“So, I mean, we grow, like, just to kind of make it on a broader sense, like, we probably grow 75% year-over-year now, and that's mainly a factor of the space that we're in”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 11:20
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kira Talent reports net negative 20% revenue churn
“We have -20% churn.”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 12:23
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kira Talent maintains a 3:1 LTV to CAC ratio
“We have a three to one LTV to CAC.”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 13:16
What-if
Cushman: Kira Talent should have bootstrapped instead of raising venture capital
“Oh, never to raise VC money. I would have bootstrapped this from the start.”
Emily Cushman Feb 2, 2019 ▶ 17:06
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