StarZero All shows Try the podcast clipper →

Jun 5, 2019 · 16m · top-founders

1411 This Tool is Flat, Bootstrapped, Why Won't Founder Get The Hell out and Sell?

Chris Mack · 7m spoken Nathan Latka · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top Entrepreneurs, host Nathan Latka interviews Spokal founder Chris Mack about his deliberate decision to run a flat, bootstrapped SaaS business as a cash-flowing lifestyle asset rather than pursuing aggressive scaling or an exit.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 44% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 6.2 Guest teaching 3.2 Guest disagreement 3.6 Nathan pushing back 5.2
05100:0010:001:13–4:25 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Introducing Chris Mack and Spokal's Core Value Nathan probes into Spokal's founding history and unit economics, pressing Chris to quantify historical churn rates. Chris cooperates by framing his shift from high-churn startup chasing to a remote lifestyle business.4:26–7:10 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Debating Metrics, Transparency, and Customer Counts Chris refuses to reveal customer counts, prompting Nathan to forcefully push back that top bootstrapped founders always track metrics and that withholding them indicates insecurity. Chris stands his ground on his psychological philosophy before eventually conceding a broad range of 10 to 1,000 customers.7:11–11:43 · Nathan as informed peer 8/10 Team Composition and API Maintenance Complexities Nathan draws directly on his experience running Heyo to dissect Spokal's API maintenance burden and explain why being coy about flat revenue hurts credibility. Chris defends his lifestyle design and acknowledges Nathan's points about transparency as something to consider.11:44–14:35 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Evaluating Potential Acquisition Versus New Ventures Nathan questions why Chris doesn't sell Spokal at a 1.5x-2x multiple to eliminate complacency, but Chris explains he uses Spokal's passive cash flow to fund global travel and launch a new cryptocurrency startup.14:36–16:34 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation transitions into the rapid-fire Famous Five routine, with Chris answering openly and Nathan providing a supportive wrap-up monologue.1:13–4:25 · Guest teaching 3/10 Introducing Chris Mack and Spokal's Core Value Nathan probes into Spokal's founding history and unit economics, pressing Chris to quantify historical churn rates. Chris cooperates by framing his shift from high-churn startup chasing to a remote lifestyle business.4:26–7:10 · Guest teaching 4/10 Debating Metrics, Transparency, and Customer Counts Chris refuses to reveal customer counts, prompting Nathan to forcefully push back that top bootstrapped founders always track metrics and that withholding them indicates insecurity. Chris stands his ground on his psychological philosophy before eventually conceding a broad range of 10 to 1,000 customers.7:11–11:43 · Guest teaching 3/10 Team Composition and API Maintenance Complexities Nathan draws directly on his experience running Heyo to dissect Spokal's API maintenance burden and explain why being coy about flat revenue hurts credibility. Chris defends his lifestyle design and acknowledges Nathan's points about transparency as something to consider.11:44–14:35 · Guest teaching 5/10 Evaluating Potential Acquisition Versus New Ventures Nathan questions why Chris doesn't sell Spokal at a 1.5x-2x multiple to eliminate complacency, but Chris explains he uses Spokal's passive cash flow to fund global travel and launch a new cryptocurrency startup.14:36–16:34 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation transitions into the rapid-fire Famous Five routine, with Chris answering openly and Nathan providing a supportive wrap-up monologue.1:13–4:25 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Introducing Chris Mack and Spokal's Core Value Nathan probes into Spokal's founding history and unit economics, pressing Chris to quantify historical churn rates. Chris cooperates by framing his shift from high-churn startup chasing to a remote lifestyle business.4:26–7:10 · Guest disagreement 7/10 Debating Metrics, Transparency, and Customer Counts Chris refuses to reveal customer counts, prompting Nathan to forcefully push back that top bootstrapped founders always track metrics and that withholding them indicates insecurity. Chris stands his ground on his psychological philosophy before eventually conceding a broad range of 10 to 1,000 customers.7:11–11:43 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Team Composition and API Maintenance Complexities Nathan draws directly on his experience running Heyo to dissect Spokal's API maintenance burden and explain why being coy about flat revenue hurts credibility. Chris defends his lifestyle design and acknowledges Nathan's points about transparency as something to consider.11:44–14:35 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Evaluating Potential Acquisition Versus New Ventures Nathan questions why Chris doesn't sell Spokal at a 1.5x-2x multiple to eliminate complacency, but Chris explains he uses Spokal's passive cash flow to fund global travel and launch a new cryptocurrency startup.14:36–16:34 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation transitions into the rapid-fire Famous Five routine, with Chris answering openly and Nathan providing a supportive wrap-up monologue.1:13–4:25 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Introducing Chris Mack and Spokal's Core Value Nathan probes into Spokal's founding history and unit economics, pressing Chris to quantify historical churn rates. Chris cooperates by framing his shift from high-churn startup chasing to a remote lifestyle business.4:26–7:10 · Nathan pushing back 8/10 Debating Metrics, Transparency, and Customer Counts Chris refuses to reveal customer counts, prompting Nathan to forcefully push back that top bootstrapped founders always track metrics and that withholding them indicates insecurity. Chris stands his ground on his psychological philosophy before eventually conceding a broad range of 10 to 1,000 customers.7:11–11:43 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Team Composition and API Maintenance Complexities Nathan draws directly on his experience running Heyo to dissect Spokal's API maintenance burden and explain why being coy about flat revenue hurts credibility. Chris defends his lifestyle design and acknowledges Nathan's points about transparency as something to consider.11:44–14:35 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Evaluating Potential Acquisition Versus New Ventures Nathan questions why Chris doesn't sell Spokal at a 1.5x-2x multiple to eliminate complacency, but Chris explains he uses Spokal's passive cash flow to fund global travel and launch a new cryptocurrency startup.14:36–16:34 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions The conversation transitions into the rapid-fire Famous Five routine, with Chris answering openly and Nathan providing a supportive wrap-up monologue.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 57.3% · guest 42.7%0:00 · Nathan 57.3% · guest 42.7%3:00 · Nathan 23.5% · guest 76.5%3:00 · Nathan 23.5% · guest 76.5%6:00 · Nathan 41% · guest 59%6:00 · Nathan 41% · guest 59%9:00 · Nathan 53.4% · guest 46.6%9:00 · Nathan 53.4% · guest 46.6%12:00 · Nathan 40% · guest 60%12:00 · Nathan 40% · guest 60%15:00 · Nathan 54.3% · guest 45.7%15:00 · Nathan 54.3% · guest 45.7%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 5:45 Chris refuses to disclose metrics despite pressure

Chris directly rejects Nathan's framing that founders must know and publish metrics, explicitly stating he will still not release his numbers.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 5:25 Nathan refutes bootstrapped metric myths

Nathan bluntly refuses Chris's claim that metrics only matter to venture-backed startups, arguing the best bootstrappers track every number meticulously.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 13:49 Chris reframes Spokal as cash flow for new startup

Chris counters Nathan's assumption that he is sitting idle and comfortable by revealing he actively travels and builds a crypto startup funded by Spokal's continuity.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 10:17 Nathan cites Heyo sale to critique API maintenance

Nathan leverages his own founder history selling Heyo after facing identical Tuesday API release churn issues to explain market dynamics and valuation realities to Chris.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Chris Mack and Spokal's Core Value 5324 Nathan probes into Spokal's founding history and unit economics, pressing Chris to quantify historical churn rates. Chris cooperates by framing his shift from high-churn startup chasing to a remote lifestyle business.
Debating Metrics, Transparency, and Customer Counts 7478 Chris refuses to reveal customer counts, prompting Nathan to forcefully push back that top bootstrapped founders always track metrics and that withholding them indicates insecurity. Chris stands his ground on his psychological philosophy before eventually conceding a broad range of 10 to 1,000 customers.
Team Composition and API Maintenance Complexities 8347 Nathan draws directly on his experience running Heyo to dissect Spokal's API maintenance burden and explain why being coy about flat revenue hurts credibility. Chris defends his lifestyle design and acknowledges Nathan's points about transparency as something to consider.
Evaluating Potential Acquisition Versus New Ventures 7546 Nathan questions why Chris doesn't sell Spokal at a 1.5x-2x multiple to eliminate complacency, but Chris explains he uses Spokal's passive cash flow to fund global travel and launch a new cryptocurrency startup.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 4111 The conversation transitions into the rapid-fire Famous Five routine, with Chris answering openly and Nathan providing a supportive wrap-up monologue.

Statements from this episode (9)

Assertion Supported
Mack: Spokal operates as pure-play SaaS priced between $50 and $200 monthly
“Yep, absolutely. Right between 5200 bucks a month.”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 1:45
Insight
Mack: SMB SaaS is tough; customers churn within 3 to 12 months
“SMB is kind of a tough space. People, Start a new platform. You know, try to handle it for three months or six months or a year and then leave.”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 3:04
Disclosure
Mack: Spokal stopped pursuing growth and transitioned to fully remote
“We stopped growing probably a few years back and we went fully remote and now we manage everything remotely.”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 3:52
Disclosure
Mack: Spokal operates with a team of four people
“We're four. We're a very small team.”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 7:33
Disclosure
Mack: Spokal slowed new feature development to maintain ~20 API integrations
“So the issue with this kind of space is it changes so fast that it's difficult to try to like you can't just build a product and then leave it running because all the other, like we integrate with probably about 20 different systems, which is kind of where a l…”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 8:05
Disclosure
Mack: Spokal peaked at high five figures in monthly revenue
“I'm not sure there's a whole lot of point in discussing exact numbers, but we, you know, we were doing yeah. High five figures.”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 10:07
Disclosure
Latka: Heyo peaked at $90K monthly before selling due to 7% churn
“My first company, Heyo, it was a drag and drop for Facebook apps. Every Tuesday morning, we knew that we were going to have something broken because that night Facebook release, that's when they did the release. And eventually we topped out about 80, 90 grand …”
Nathan Latka Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 10:22
Opinion
Latka: Declining SaaS businesses only command 1.5x to 2x revenue multiples
“I mean, you'd be lucky to probably get one and a half, two X, I think for a company.”
Nathan Latka Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 12:15
Disclosure
Mack: Developing stealth cryptocurrency startup alongside Spokal
“I've got a cryptocurrency based startup that's kind of still under stuff. So I've got like some other things that I'm working on that keep the challenge going.”
Chris Mack Jun 5, 2019 ▶ 14:12
Made with StarZero

Turn any episode into a week of clips.

This entire site, over 2,600 episodes transcribed, diarized, checked and made playable, runs on the StarZero media pipeline. Drop in your own episode and the podcast clipper finds the moments worth sharing, cuts them, captions them, and reframes them for every feed.

Try the podcast clipper Learn more