Oct 26, 2021 · 17m · top-founders

Madwire $100m ARR Looks for Private Equity Partner for SMB Rollup Strategy

JB Kellogg · 9m spoken Nathan Latka · 5m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Madwire co-founder and co-CEO JB Kellogg shares how the company scaled to nearly $100 million in ARR with minimal external capital by providing SMBs with an integrated marketing and embedded payments platform. He also reveals Madwire's forward-looking strategy to partner with private equity to execute a programmatic vertical software roll-up.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 37.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 6.6 Guest teaching 3.8 Guest disagreement 1.4 Nathan pushing back 3.6
05100:0010:002:11–4:34 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 SMB Product Suite, Pricing, and First-Year Churn Strategy Nathan presses JB on whether the company still experiences brutal SMB churn (losing 9 out of 10 customers in year one) given its high ARPU expansion model. JB gently clarifies that while first-year churn is high (50-60%), they treat year one as an effectively paid customer trial where marketing costs are recaptured before hitting a solid 1.5% monthly core churn in year two.4:34–8:34 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Expanding into Embedded Payments and Processing GMV Nathan drills into the unit economics of embedded payments GMV and questions the viability of low-margin consulting revenue. JB explains that their marketing services are heavily automated and act as a software-assisted sales mechanism rather than headcount-heavy agency work, demonstrating a 3x ARPU increase over prior years.8:34–11:07 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 M&A Roll-Up Vision for Vertical SMB Software Nathan inquires about balance sheet cash and dry powder for inorganic growth. JB lays out his thesis on vertical point solutions being an arbitrage acquisition target where Madwire integrates engineering while cutting back-office overhead.11:07–13:38 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Current ARR Scale, COVID-19 Resilience, and Cap Table Nathan challenges JB on revenue stagnation, pointing out that ARR has hovered around $95M-$110M for multiple years. JB clarifies that 2020 revenue went sideways intentionally because they froze billing for closed SMB clients during COVID-19 lockdowns, but growth has rebounded back to 30% pacing.13:38–16:11 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Target Growth Equity Partner Profile and Integration Strategy Nathan compares Madwire's strategic playbook to EIG's historical web roll-up strategy, while JB outlines how they would structure secondary sales alongside $100M+ in balance sheet capital to build a vertical marketplace.2:11–4:34 · Guest teaching 5/10 SMB Product Suite, Pricing, and First-Year Churn Strategy Nathan presses JB on whether the company still experiences brutal SMB churn (losing 9 out of 10 customers in year one) given its high ARPU expansion model. JB gently clarifies that while first-year churn is high (50-60%), they treat year one as an effectively paid customer trial where marketing costs are recaptured before hitting a solid 1.5% monthly core churn in year two.4:34–8:34 · Guest teaching 4/10 Expanding into Embedded Payments and Processing GMV Nathan drills into the unit economics of embedded payments GMV and questions the viability of low-margin consulting revenue. JB explains that their marketing services are heavily automated and act as a software-assisted sales mechanism rather than headcount-heavy agency work, demonstrating a 3x ARPU increase over prior years.8:34–11:07 · Guest teaching 3/10 M&A Roll-Up Vision for Vertical SMB Software Nathan inquires about balance sheet cash and dry powder for inorganic growth. JB lays out his thesis on vertical point solutions being an arbitrage acquisition target where Madwire integrates engineering while cutting back-office overhead.11:07–13:38 · Guest teaching 4/10 Current ARR Scale, COVID-19 Resilience, and Cap Table Nathan challenges JB on revenue stagnation, pointing out that ARR has hovered around $95M-$110M for multiple years. JB clarifies that 2020 revenue went sideways intentionally because they froze billing for closed SMB clients during COVID-19 lockdowns, but growth has rebounded back to 30% pacing.13:38–16:11 · Guest teaching 3/10 Target Growth Equity Partner Profile and Integration Strategy Nathan compares Madwire's strategic playbook to EIG's historical web roll-up strategy, while JB outlines how they would structure secondary sales alongside $100M+ in balance sheet capital to build a vertical marketplace.2:11–4:34 · Guest disagreement 2/10 SMB Product Suite, Pricing, and First-Year Churn Strategy Nathan presses JB on whether the company still experiences brutal SMB churn (losing 9 out of 10 customers in year one) given its high ARPU expansion model. JB gently clarifies that while first-year churn is high (50-60%), they treat year one as an effectively paid customer trial where marketing costs are recaptured before hitting a solid 1.5% monthly core churn in year two.4:34–8:34 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Expanding into Embedded Payments and Processing GMV Nathan drills into the unit economics of embedded payments GMV and questions the viability of low-margin consulting revenue. JB explains that their marketing services are heavily automated and act as a software-assisted sales mechanism rather than headcount-heavy agency work, demonstrating a 3x ARPU increase over prior years.8:34–11:07 · Guest disagreement 1/10 M&A Roll-Up Vision for Vertical SMB Software Nathan inquires about balance sheet cash and dry powder for inorganic growth. JB lays out his thesis on vertical point solutions being an arbitrage acquisition target where Madwire integrates engineering while cutting back-office overhead.11:07–13:38 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Current ARR Scale, COVID-19 Resilience, and Cap Table Nathan challenges JB on revenue stagnation, pointing out that ARR has hovered around $95M-$110M for multiple years. JB clarifies that 2020 revenue went sideways intentionally because they froze billing for closed SMB clients during COVID-19 lockdowns, but growth has rebounded back to 30% pacing.13:38–16:11 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Target Growth Equity Partner Profile and Integration Strategy Nathan compares Madwire's strategic playbook to EIG's historical web roll-up strategy, while JB outlines how they would structure secondary sales alongside $100M+ in balance sheet capital to build a vertical marketplace.2:11–4:34 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 SMB Product Suite, Pricing, and First-Year Churn Strategy Nathan presses JB on whether the company still experiences brutal SMB churn (losing 9 out of 10 customers in year one) given its high ARPU expansion model. JB gently clarifies that while first-year churn is high (50-60%), they treat year one as an effectively paid customer trial where marketing costs are recaptured before hitting a solid 1.5% monthly core churn in year two.4:34–8:34 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Expanding into Embedded Payments and Processing GMV Nathan drills into the unit economics of embedded payments GMV and questions the viability of low-margin consulting revenue. JB explains that their marketing services are heavily automated and act as a software-assisted sales mechanism rather than headcount-heavy agency work, demonstrating a 3x ARPU increase over prior years.8:34–11:07 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 M&A Roll-Up Vision for Vertical SMB Software Nathan inquires about balance sheet cash and dry powder for inorganic growth. JB lays out his thesis on vertical point solutions being an arbitrage acquisition target where Madwire integrates engineering while cutting back-office overhead.11:07–13:38 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Current ARR Scale, COVID-19 Resilience, and Cap Table Nathan challenges JB on revenue stagnation, pointing out that ARR has hovered around $95M-$110M for multiple years. JB clarifies that 2020 revenue went sideways intentionally because they froze billing for closed SMB clients during COVID-19 lockdowns, but growth has rebounded back to 30% pacing.13:38–16:11 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Target Growth Equity Partner Profile and Integration Strategy Nathan compares Madwire's strategic playbook to EIG's historical web roll-up strategy, while JB outlines how they would structure secondary sales alongside $100M+ in balance sheet capital to build a vertical marketplace.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 57.5% · guest 42.5%0:00 · Nathan 57.5% · guest 42.5%3:00 · Nathan 33.1% · guest 66.9%3:00 · Nathan 33.1% · guest 66.9%6:00 · Nathan 35.8% · guest 64.2%6:00 · Nathan 35.8% · guest 64.2%9:00 · Nathan 7.9% · guest 92.1%9:00 · Nathan 7.9% · guest 92.1%12:00 · Nathan 41% · guest 59%12:00 · Nathan 41% · guest 59%15:00 · Nathan 52.5% · guest 47.5%15:00 · Nathan 52.5% · guest 47.5%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 3:25 Clarifying first-year SMB churn statistics

JB directly corrects Nathan's assumption that Madwire loses nine out of ten customers in year one, clarifying it is 50-60% and acts as a profitable customer trial.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 12:00 Challenging multi-year revenue plateau

Nathan bluntly presses JB on whether the business has stalled in the $95M-$110M ARR band over the past four to five years.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 3:30 Reframing SMB churn as a paid trial mechanism

JB details how customer acquisition math works for SMBs, explaining that first-year churn allows them to recapture CAC entirely before graduating high-LTV customers to core status.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 13:00 Capital efficiency benchmark against venture-backed peers

Nathan highlights the massive capital efficiency difference between Madwire bootstrapping to $100M ARR versus VC-backed unicorns like Gong burning hundreds of millions.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
SMB Product Suite, Pricing, and First-Year Churn Strategy 6524 Nathan presses JB on whether the company still experiences brutal SMB churn (losing 9 out of 10 customers in year one) given its high ARPU expansion model. JB gently clarifies that while first-year churn is high (50-60%), they treat year one as an effectively paid customer trial where marketing costs are recaptured before hitting a solid 1.5% monthly core churn in year two.
Expanding into Embedded Payments and Processing GMV 7414 Nathan drills into the unit economics of embedded payments GMV and questions the viability of low-margin consulting revenue. JB explains that their marketing services are heavily automated and act as a software-assisted sales mechanism rather than headcount-heavy agency work, demonstrating a 3x ARPU increase over prior years.
M&A Roll-Up Vision for Vertical SMB Software 6313 Nathan inquires about balance sheet cash and dry powder for inorganic growth. JB lays out his thesis on vertical point solutions being an arbitrage acquisition target where Madwire integrates engineering while cutting back-office overhead.
Current ARR Scale, COVID-19 Resilience, and Cap Table 7425 Nathan challenges JB on revenue stagnation, pointing out that ARR has hovered around $95M-$110M for multiple years. JB clarifies that 2020 revenue went sideways intentionally because they froze billing for closed SMB clients during COVID-19 lockdowns, but growth has rebounded back to 30% pacing.
Target Growth Equity Partner Profile and Integration Strategy 7312 Nathan compares Madwire's strategic playbook to EIG's historical web roll-up strategy, while JB outlines how they would structure secondary sales alongside $100M+ in balance sheet capital to build a vertical marketplace.

Statements from this episode (18)

Disclosure
Madwire was fully bootstrapped for its first five years
“And we were for the first five years legitimately.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 1:20
Disclosure
Madwire raised $7.5M in its initial outside funding round
“Seven million. Yeah. Seven and a half. Yeah.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 1:26
Disclosure
Kellogg recalls Madwire's 2014-2015 valuation around $40M
“I think it was in like the forty million range, right in that area.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 1:54
Disclosure
Kellogg estimates Madwire had $15M-$20M ARR during 2014-2015 raise
“Revenue at that time was, I feel like our recurring was like fifteen million a year or something like that, maybe 20, right in that range.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 2:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: Madwire's New SMB Accounts Average $1,800 Monthly ARPU
“So in addition to our platform, which is 395 dollars a month, You can add on additional subscriptions for the marketing component. And so that pushes, you know, our new accounts coming in the door today are averaging about 1800 dollars a month, right in that a…”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 2:56
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: Madwire's Post-12-Month Core Customer Churn Is ~1.5% Monthly
“Our core customers is a customer that's been with us over 12 months and our core customer churns really good. It's like one and a half percent per month.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 3:31
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: 50% to 60% of Madwire Customers Churn in Year One
“So a good percentage do churn in the first year. It's not nine out of 10, but it is about, you know, probably close to 60%, 50, 60%. We'll churn, but we capture, recapture our marketing costs.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 3:57
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: Madwire onboards 75% of new accounts to payments
“We're currently onboarding about 75% of our new accounts to payments.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 4:47
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: Madwire processes $1M in monthly payments GMV
“Well, we're about a million a month right now is about what our average is.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 5:29
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: Madwire payments GMV growth will settle around 20% monthly
“It's been growing a lot, but we think it'll flatten out probably be like 20% monthly growth here over the next couple of years.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 5:37
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: 80% of New Madwire Customers Sign Up for Marketing Programs
“80% of our new customers do sign up for a marketing program.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 7:19
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kellogg: Madwire Has About 20,000 Total Paying Customers
“Total customers paying. Yeah, that's about 20,000.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 8:30
Disclosure
Kellogg: Madwire seeks an investment partner to fund software M&A rollups
“We are looking for, you know a possible new partner that sees in that vision and buys into that that would be excited about that for additional gunpowder, but we have no shortage of opportunities. We have a huge list of opportunities. We're actively talking wi…”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 9:50
Opinion
Kellogg: SMB software point solutions are falling behind all-in-one platforms
“Point solutions are sort of a dying game now. And all those point solutions are You know, they're falling behind because there's more and more platforms that do everything.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 10:24
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Madwire Reaches Approximately $8 Million in Monthly Recurring Revenue
“MRR today is right around eight million, right in that range.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 11:11
What-if
Kellogg: Madwire Would Be at $120M-$130M ARR Without COVID-19
“If last year didn't happen, we'd probably be in the one 20, the 30 range right now.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 12:16
Disclosure
Kellogg Confirms He and His Father Own About 60% of Madwire
“Yeah. About 60. Yeah.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 13:31
Disclosure
Kellogg: Madwire seeks $100M+ on balance sheet for M&A strategy
“It'd be nice to have a hundred million or more on the balance sheet that we could work with.”
JB Kellogg Oct 26, 2021 ▶ 14:17
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