Jan 12, 2023 · 22m · top-founders

He Sold his First Company for $425m, Here's What He Did Next

Stephen Messer · 12m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of Conversations with Nathan Latka, LinkShare co-founder Stephen Messer discusses how he leveraged his $425 million exit to self-fund Collective[i], an enterprise AI data network revolutionizing sales forecasting. Messer explains the mechanics of neural network intelligence, data network economics, and why building sustainable, bootstrapped technology creates superior long-term leverage.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 37.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.4 Guest teaching 3.3 Guest disagreement 2.6 Nathan pushing back 3.4
05100:0010:0020:002:21–4:45 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The LinkShare Journey and $425M Rakuten Acquisition Nathan asks straightforward questions about the LinkShare acquisition and whether Stephen felt he got filthy rich. Stephen gives standard founder answers emphasizing industry impact over personal wealth.4:45–9:18 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Collective[i]'s Neural Network Intelligence Model Nathan drills into the technical mechanics of data collection, testing specific hypothetical workflows like ClickUp versus Basecamp. Stephen clarifies how abstracted neural net buyer signals work like Waze.9:19–12:18 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Freemium Data Network Strategy and Organizational Structure Nathan directly challenges Stephen's evasive 5% B2B economy metric and checks LinkedIn to challenge Stephen's claim that the team is almost entirely engineers. Stephen defends the viral expansion model.12:18–16:20 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Monetization Strategy and Contract Values Nathan presses Stephen on a reported $20M Series A on Crunchbase and digs into how much personal money was invested. Stephen denies outside funding and claims self-funding as internal VC.16:20–18:28 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Early Development and Securing the First Enterprise Client Stephen explains the early R&D phase from 2008 to 2012, highlighting how the black-box nature of neural nets helped convince enterprise clients to share proprietary data safely.18:29–20:42 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Debating Revenue Benchmarks and Network vs. SaaS Economics Nathan uses standard SaaS employee productivity benchmarks to estimate revenue around $12M, which Stephen strongly rejects as an inapplicable SaaS metric for a network business.20:42–21:34 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions with crisp, agreeable answers from Stephen.2:21–4:45 · Guest teaching 2/10 The LinkShare Journey and $425M Rakuten Acquisition Nathan asks straightforward questions about the LinkShare acquisition and whether Stephen felt he got filthy rich. Stephen gives standard founder answers emphasizing industry impact over personal wealth.4:45–9:18 · Guest teaching 4/10 Collective[i]'s Neural Network Intelligence Model Nathan drills into the technical mechanics of data collection, testing specific hypothetical workflows like ClickUp versus Basecamp. Stephen clarifies how abstracted neural net buyer signals work like Waze.9:19–12:18 · Guest teaching 3/10 Freemium Data Network Strategy and Organizational Structure Nathan directly challenges Stephen's evasive 5% B2B economy metric and checks LinkedIn to challenge Stephen's claim that the team is almost entirely engineers. Stephen defends the viral expansion model.12:18–16:20 · Guest teaching 3/10 Monetization Strategy and Contract Values Nathan presses Stephen on a reported $20M Series A on Crunchbase and digs into how much personal money was invested. Stephen denies outside funding and claims self-funding as internal VC.16:20–18:28 · Guest teaching 5/10 Early Development and Securing the First Enterprise Client Stephen explains the early R&D phase from 2008 to 2012, highlighting how the black-box nature of neural nets helped convince enterprise clients to share proprietary data safely.18:29–20:42 · Guest teaching 5/10 Debating Revenue Benchmarks and Network vs. SaaS Economics Nathan uses standard SaaS employee productivity benchmarks to estimate revenue around $12M, which Stephen strongly rejects as an inapplicable SaaS metric for a network business.20:42–21:34 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions with crisp, agreeable answers from Stephen.2:21–4:45 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The LinkShare Journey and $425M Rakuten Acquisition Nathan asks straightforward questions about the LinkShare acquisition and whether Stephen felt he got filthy rich. Stephen gives standard founder answers emphasizing industry impact over personal wealth.4:45–9:18 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Collective[i]'s Neural Network Intelligence Model Nathan drills into the technical mechanics of data collection, testing specific hypothetical workflows like ClickUp versus Basecamp. Stephen clarifies how abstracted neural net buyer signals work like Waze.9:19–12:18 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Freemium Data Network Strategy and Organizational Structure Nathan directly challenges Stephen's evasive 5% B2B economy metric and checks LinkedIn to challenge Stephen's claim that the team is almost entirely engineers. Stephen defends the viral expansion model.12:18–16:20 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Monetization Strategy and Contract Values Nathan presses Stephen on a reported $20M Series A on Crunchbase and digs into how much personal money was invested. Stephen denies outside funding and claims self-funding as internal VC.16:20–18:28 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Early Development and Securing the First Enterprise Client Stephen explains the early R&D phase from 2008 to 2012, highlighting how the black-box nature of neural nets helped convince enterprise clients to share proprietary data safely.18:29–20:42 · Guest disagreement 6/10 Debating Revenue Benchmarks and Network vs. SaaS Economics Nathan uses standard SaaS employee productivity benchmarks to estimate revenue around $12M, which Stephen strongly rejects as an inapplicable SaaS metric for a network business.20:42–21:34 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions with crisp, agreeable answers from Stephen.2:21–4:45 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The LinkShare Journey and $425M Rakuten Acquisition Nathan asks straightforward questions about the LinkShare acquisition and whether Stephen felt he got filthy rich. Stephen gives standard founder answers emphasizing industry impact over personal wealth.4:45–9:18 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Collective[i]'s Neural Network Intelligence Model Nathan drills into the technical mechanics of data collection, testing specific hypothetical workflows like ClickUp versus Basecamp. Stephen clarifies how abstracted neural net buyer signals work like Waze.9:19–12:18 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Freemium Data Network Strategy and Organizational Structure Nathan directly challenges Stephen's evasive 5% B2B economy metric and checks LinkedIn to challenge Stephen's claim that the team is almost entirely engineers. Stephen defends the viral expansion model.12:18–16:20 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Monetization Strategy and Contract Values Nathan presses Stephen on a reported $20M Series A on Crunchbase and digs into how much personal money was invested. Stephen denies outside funding and claims self-funding as internal VC.16:20–18:28 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Early Development and Securing the First Enterprise Client Stephen explains the early R&D phase from 2008 to 2012, highlighting how the black-box nature of neural nets helped convince enterprise clients to share proprietary data safely.18:29–20:42 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Debating Revenue Benchmarks and Network vs. SaaS Economics Nathan uses standard SaaS employee productivity benchmarks to estimate revenue around $12M, which Stephen strongly rejects as an inapplicable SaaS metric for a network business.20:42–21:34 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions Nathan runs through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions with crisp, agreeable answers from Stephen.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 84.3% · guest 15.7%0:00 · Nathan 84.3% · guest 15.7%3:00 · Nathan 14.6% · guest 85.4%3:00 · Nathan 14.6% · guest 85.4%6:00 · Nathan 28.9% · guest 71.1%6:00 · Nathan 28.9% · guest 71.1%9:00 · Nathan 26.8% · guest 73.2%9:00 · Nathan 26.8% · guest 73.2%12:00 · Nathan 30.4% · guest 69.6%12:00 · Nathan 30.4% · guest 69.6%15:00 · Nathan 15.9% · guest 84.1%15:00 · Nathan 15.9% · guest 84.1%18:00 · Nathan 46.2% · guest 53.8%18:00 · Nathan 46.2% · guest 53.8%21:00 · Nathan 71.5% · guest 28.5%21:00 · Nathan 71.5% · guest 28.5%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 19:20 Messer dismisses SaaS revenue benchmark calculation

Stephen directly tells Nathan his calculation is flatly wrong because Nathan is evaluating the company as a SaaS business rather than a non-linear data network.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 9:37 Latka rejects non-specific percentage metric

Nathan bluntly refuses Stephen's abstraction that they track 5% of the globe's B2B economy, stating plainly that nobody knows what that means in actual customer count.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:50 Messer breaks down black-box neural net privacy advantage

Stephen reframes the historic criticism of neural network black boxes into a major competitive security advantage for data-sharing networks.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 19:44 Latka defends revenue-per-employee methodology

Nathan counters Stephen's rebuttal by clarifying that revenue-per-employee is a universal operational benchmark across tech companies regardless of whether software is pure SaaS or network-based.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
The LinkShare Journey and $425M Rakuten Acquisition 4211 Nathan asks straightforward questions about the LinkShare acquisition and whether Stephen felt he got filthy rich. Stephen gives standard founder answers emphasizing industry impact over personal wealth.
Collective[i]'s Neural Network Intelligence Model 6423 Nathan drills into the technical mechanics of data collection, testing specific hypothetical workflows like ClickUp versus Basecamp. Stephen clarifies how abstracted neural net buyer signals work like Waze.
Freemium Data Network Strategy and Organizational Structure 7346 Nathan directly challenges Stephen's evasive 5% B2B economy metric and checks LinkedIn to challenge Stephen's claim that the team is almost entirely engineers. Stephen defends the viral expansion model.
Monetization Strategy and Contract Values 6335 Nathan presses Stephen on a reported $20M Series A on Crunchbase and digs into how much personal money was invested. Stephen denies outside funding and claims self-funding as internal VC.
Early Development and Securing the First Enterprise Client 5522 Stephen explains the early R&D phase from 2008 to 2012, highlighting how the black-box nature of neural nets helped convince enterprise clients to share proprietary data safely.
Debating Revenue Benchmarks and Network vs. SaaS Economics 7567 Nathan uses standard SaaS employee productivity benchmarks to estimate revenue around $12M, which Stephen strongly rejects as an inapplicable SaaS metric for a network business.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions 3100 Nathan runs through the standard Famous Five rapid-fire questions with crisp, agreeable answers from Stephen.

Statements from this episode (10)

Assertion Contradicted
Messer: LinkShare held 96% of global affiliate market at acquisition
“We were the first affiliate marketer. We became the global player. I think when we finally sold the business to Rakuten, it was Probably. 96% of the affiliate market globally and still is today.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 2:39
Assertion Partly supported
Messer: LinkShare is Rakuten's top revenue generator outside Japan
“So when we came there, it was the first American acquisition they had made. And I think to this day, it's probably still the greatest revenue producer outside of Japan that Rocky has ever had.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 2:53
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Messer: 5% of global B2B economy passes through Collective[i] daily
“We usually just disclosed about five percent of the globe's B to B economy is passing through us every day.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 9:33
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Messer: Collective[i] has roughly 140 full-time employees
“About a 140 in the company.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 10:56
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Messer: Only 15 to 20 Collective[i] employees are non-engineers
“Maybe 1520.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 11:58
Disclosure
Messer: Collective[i] ACV is usually above $100,000 at $9,000 per manager
“Usually you're looking at per, per manager, roughly around 9000 dollars a year per manager. So depending on how big your team is. So our ACV is usually above a 100,000 dollars, but we have SMBs all the way up.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 13:17
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Messer: Collective[i] never raised a $20M Series A
“There is no twenty million dollars series A. It's actually much more money than that into this company.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 14:07
Insight
Messer: Launching an AI company requires north of $100 million
“AI companies, you're usually talking about, you know, usually north of a hundred million dollars to get these companies off the ground.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 14:12
Disclosure
Messer: Founders netted more than $100 million from LinkShare sale
“Well, let's hope one, I hope we made more than that, which we did.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 15:25
Insight
Messer: Collective[i] scales as a data network, not SaaS
“We are not a SAS business. We're a data network business. We scale in a vastly different way.”
Stephen Messer Jan 12, 2023 ▶ 19:40
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