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Feb 14, 2023 · 15m · top-founders

What happens when a PHD professor in analytics launches a SaaS company?

Mike Kimmel · 9m spoken Nathan Latka · 1s spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this podcast interview, PhD economist and pricing veteran Mike Kimmel discusses founding PriceSymmetrics, detailing how he bootstrapped a ten-person equity-based team to turn complex enterprise pricing analytics into an accessible SaaS platform for small and mid-sized businesses.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 25.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.6 Nathan pushing back 4.4
05100:0010:000:00–2:38 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Show Overview and PriceSymmetrics Value Proposition Nathan introduces the company and asks foundational questions about product functionality and target use cases. Mike explains the core optimization algorithms and profit-maximizing features without friction.2:40–5:43 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Company Origins, Team Composition, and Equity Model Nathan presses Mike on how he convinces a 10-person team to work for unproven equity when the startup is pre-revenue. Mike explains that personal trust and analytics domain expertise attracted his former colleagues.5:45–9:47 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Sales Team Structure and Securing Initial Customer Pilots Nathan questions the lower-bound SKU threshold for software utility. Mike educates Nathan on enterprise incumbents like PROS charging six-figure site licenses and articulates PriceSymmetrics' mission to democratize pricing analytics.9:47–12:21 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Strategic Focus on SaaS Over Traditional Consulting Nathan strongly challenges Mike's decision to shut down his consulting practice rather than using service revenue to fund SaaS product development. Mike concedes his personal sales limitations and explains his goal to build the QuickBooks of pricing.12:21–14:31 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Bootstrapping Capital and Financial Risk Assessment Nathan covers capital investment totals and transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions.0:00–2:38 · Guest teaching 3/10 Show Overview and PriceSymmetrics Value Proposition Nathan introduces the company and asks foundational questions about product functionality and target use cases. Mike explains the core optimization algorithms and profit-maximizing features without friction.2:40–5:43 · Guest teaching 2/10 Company Origins, Team Composition, and Equity Model Nathan presses Mike on how he convinces a 10-person team to work for unproven equity when the startup is pre-revenue. Mike explains that personal trust and analytics domain expertise attracted his former colleagues.5:45–9:47 · Guest teaching 6/10 Sales Team Structure and Securing Initial Customer Pilots Nathan questions the lower-bound SKU threshold for software utility. Mike educates Nathan on enterprise incumbents like PROS charging six-figure site licenses and articulates PriceSymmetrics' mission to democratize pricing analytics.9:47–12:21 · Guest teaching 3/10 Strategic Focus on SaaS Over Traditional Consulting Nathan strongly challenges Mike's decision to shut down his consulting practice rather than using service revenue to fund SaaS product development. Mike concedes his personal sales limitations and explains his goal to build the QuickBooks of pricing.12:21–14:31 · Guest teaching 1/10 Bootstrapping Capital and Financial Risk Assessment Nathan covers capital investment totals and transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions.0:00–2:38 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Show Overview and PriceSymmetrics Value Proposition Nathan introduces the company and asks foundational questions about product functionality and target use cases. Mike explains the core optimization algorithms and profit-maximizing features without friction.2:40–5:43 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Company Origins, Team Composition, and Equity Model Nathan presses Mike on how he convinces a 10-person team to work for unproven equity when the startup is pre-revenue. Mike explains that personal trust and analytics domain expertise attracted his former colleagues.5:45–9:47 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sales Team Structure and Securing Initial Customer Pilots Nathan questions the lower-bound SKU threshold for software utility. Mike educates Nathan on enterprise incumbents like PROS charging six-figure site licenses and articulates PriceSymmetrics' mission to democratize pricing analytics.9:47–12:21 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Strategic Focus on SaaS Over Traditional Consulting Nathan strongly challenges Mike's decision to shut down his consulting practice rather than using service revenue to fund SaaS product development. Mike concedes his personal sales limitations and explains his goal to build the QuickBooks of pricing.12:21–14:31 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Bootstrapping Capital and Financial Risk Assessment Nathan covers capital investment totals and transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions.0:00–2:38 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Show Overview and PriceSymmetrics Value Proposition Nathan introduces the company and asks foundational questions about product functionality and target use cases. Mike explains the core optimization algorithms and profit-maximizing features without friction.2:40–5:43 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Company Origins, Team Composition, and Equity Model Nathan presses Mike on how he convinces a 10-person team to work for unproven equity when the startup is pre-revenue. Mike explains that personal trust and analytics domain expertise attracted his former colleagues.5:45–9:47 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Sales Team Structure and Securing Initial Customer Pilots Nathan questions the lower-bound SKU threshold for software utility. Mike educates Nathan on enterprise incumbents like PROS charging six-figure site licenses and articulates PriceSymmetrics' mission to democratize pricing analytics.9:47–12:21 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Strategic Focus on SaaS Over Traditional Consulting Nathan strongly challenges Mike's decision to shut down his consulting practice rather than using service revenue to fund SaaS product development. Mike concedes his personal sales limitations and explains his goal to build the QuickBooks of pricing.12:21–14:31 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Bootstrapping Capital and Financial Risk Assessment Nathan covers capital investment totals and transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 38.5% · guest 61.5%0:00 · Nathan 38.5% · guest 61.5%3:00 · Nathan 21% · guest 79%3:00 · Nathan 21% · guest 79%6:00 · Nathan 12.9% · guest 87.1%6:00 · Nathan 12.9% · guest 87.1%9:00 · Nathan 21.7% · guest 78.3%9:00 · Nathan 21.7% · guest 78.3%12:00 · Nathan 34.9% · guest 65.1%12:00 · Nathan 34.9% · guest 65.1%15:00 · Nathan 51.7% · guest 48.3%15:00 · Nathan 51.7% · guest 48.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 10:16 Defending product SaaS vision over consulting

Mike defends moving away from bespoke consulting by comparing his SaaS platform to QuickBooks democratizing enterprise accounting.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 11:18 Challenging the decision to halt consulting

Nathan directly challenges Mike on why he would shut down consulting revenue if he truly understood customer demand.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:35 Explaining the enterprise pricing landscape

Mike educates Nathan on legacy competitors like PROS and the prohibitive $150k-$200k annual site licenses shutting out smaller businesses.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 5:32 Hard reality check on PhD code without sales

Nathan reminds Mike that PhD credentials and great code are worthless if the team cannot execute B2B software sales.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Show Overview and PriceSymmetrics Value Proposition 4312 Nathan introduces the company and asks foundational questions about product functionality and target use cases. Mike explains the core optimization algorithms and profit-maximizing features without friction.
Company Origins, Team Composition, and Equity Model 6226 Nathan presses Mike on how he convinces a 10-person team to work for unproven equity when the startup is pre-revenue. Mike explains that personal trust and analytics domain expertise attracted his former colleagues.
Sales Team Structure and Securing Initial Customer Pilots 5625 Nathan questions the lower-bound SKU threshold for software utility. Mike educates Nathan on enterprise incumbents like PROS charging six-figure site licenses and articulates PriceSymmetrics' mission to democratize pricing analytics.
Strategic Focus on SaaS Over Traditional Consulting 6327 Nathan strongly challenges Mike's decision to shut down his consulting practice rather than using service revenue to fund SaaS product development. Mike concedes his personal sales limitations and explains his goal to build the QuickBooks of pricing.
Bootstrapping Capital and Financial Risk Assessment 3112 Nathan covers capital investment totals and transitions smoothly into the standard Famous Five rapid-fire closing questions.

Statements from this episode (6)

Disclosure
Kimmel: Entire PriceSymmetrics team except for him works part-time
“Everybody but me currently is part-time.”
Mike Kimmel Feb 14, 2023 ▶ 3:07
Disclosure
Kimmel: Only head coder receives cash; rest of team takes equity
“We have one person getting paid right now, and that's our head coder. We basically are bootstrapping right now, although we are looking to raise money. The rest of the team is working on equity.”
Mike Kimmel Feb 14, 2023 ▶ 3:20
Insight
Kimmel: Businesses with under 50 SKUs do not need pricing software
“My guess is that probably if you've got less than 50 SKUs or so, or you do very little in the way of transactions, you probably don't need the product.”
Mike Kimmel Feb 14, 2023 ▶ 7:46
Assertion Contradicted
Kimmel: Enterprise pricing software costs at least $150K to $200K annually
“You cannot get pricing software at less than, call it a 150,200 thousand dollars a year for an annual site license.”
Mike Kimmel Feb 14, 2023 ▶ 8:47
Disclosure
Kimmel: PriceSymmetrics aims to become the QuickBooks for pricing
“Our goal, when we look at it, our goal is to be something like a QuickBooks for pricing.”
Mike Kimmel Feb 14, 2023 ▶ 10:23
Disclosure
Kimmel: The PriceSymmetrics team has personally invested roughly $100,000
“I think about a hundred K give or take.”
Mike Kimmel Feb 14, 2023 ▶ 12:45
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