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Dec 28, 2023 · 23m · saastr

Is AI the Only Thing in SaaS that Anyone Cares About Anymore? AMA Part 1 w/ SaaStr CEO Jason Lemkin

Jason Lemkin · 18m spoken John Becker · 20s spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this SaaStr AMA session, CEO Jason Lemkin analyzes the current venture capital landscape, vertical SaaS economics, platform marketplace power laws, and tactical strategies for founder-led enterprise sales.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Jason holds 86.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Jason as informed peer 8.0 Guest teaching 0.0 Guest disagreement 0.3 Jason pushing back 1.8
05100:0010:0020:000:00–6:52 · Jason as informed peer 8/10 VC Appetite in SaaS and the Dominance of AI Jason delivers an extensive breakdown of current SaaS VC dynamics, citing recent valuation multiples, public market comps, Bessemer and Craft Ventures allocation stats, and specific enterprise spend patterns at ZoomInfo.6:52–10:26 · Jason as informed peer 8/10 The Viability and Economics of Vertical SaaS Jason gently counters the premise that vertical SaaS is a novel category, walking through historical examples like ServiceTitan, Toast, and Klaviyo while detailing ACV and market size thresholds.10:26–13:53 · Jason as informed peer 8/10 Platform Ecosystem Economics and Extension App Power Laws Jason explains platform app store economics using concrete ARR figures from the Shopify ecosystem, contrasting high day-one attach rates like Klaviyo with lower-tier extension apps.13:53–23:52 · Jason as informed peer 8/10 Managing Complex Enterprise Sales and Finding a Late Co-Founder After opening with a satirical riff on generic sales hires, Jason directly challenges the founder's expectation that hiring a VP of sales will free up founder time in complex enterprise deals.0:00–6:52 · Guest teaching 0/10 VC Appetite in SaaS and the Dominance of AI Jason delivers an extensive breakdown of current SaaS VC dynamics, citing recent valuation multiples, public market comps, Bessemer and Craft Ventures allocation stats, and specific enterprise spend patterns at ZoomInfo.6:52–10:26 · Guest teaching 0/10 The Viability and Economics of Vertical SaaS Jason gently counters the premise that vertical SaaS is a novel category, walking through historical examples like ServiceTitan, Toast, and Klaviyo while detailing ACV and market size thresholds.10:26–13:53 · Guest teaching 0/10 Platform Ecosystem Economics and Extension App Power Laws Jason explains platform app store economics using concrete ARR figures from the Shopify ecosystem, contrasting high day-one attach rates like Klaviyo with lower-tier extension apps.13:53–23:52 · Guest teaching 0/10 Managing Complex Enterprise Sales and Finding a Late Co-Founder After opening with a satirical riff on generic sales hires, Jason directly challenges the founder's expectation that hiring a VP of sales will free up founder time in complex enterprise deals.0:00–6:52 · Guest disagreement 0/10 VC Appetite in SaaS and the Dominance of AI Jason delivers an extensive breakdown of current SaaS VC dynamics, citing recent valuation multiples, public market comps, Bessemer and Craft Ventures allocation stats, and specific enterprise spend patterns at ZoomInfo.6:52–10:26 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Viability and Economics of Vertical SaaS Jason gently counters the premise that vertical SaaS is a novel category, walking through historical examples like ServiceTitan, Toast, and Klaviyo while detailing ACV and market size thresholds.10:26–13:53 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Platform Ecosystem Economics and Extension App Power Laws Jason explains platform app store economics using concrete ARR figures from the Shopify ecosystem, contrasting high day-one attach rates like Klaviyo with lower-tier extension apps.13:53–23:52 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Managing Complex Enterprise Sales and Finding a Late Co-Founder After opening with a satirical riff on generic sales hires, Jason directly challenges the founder's expectation that hiring a VP of sales will free up founder time in complex enterprise deals.0:00–6:52 · Jason pushing back 0/10 VC Appetite in SaaS and the Dominance of AI Jason delivers an extensive breakdown of current SaaS VC dynamics, citing recent valuation multiples, public market comps, Bessemer and Craft Ventures allocation stats, and specific enterprise spend patterns at ZoomInfo.6:52–10:26 · Jason pushing back 3/10 The Viability and Economics of Vertical SaaS Jason gently counters the premise that vertical SaaS is a novel category, walking through historical examples like ServiceTitan, Toast, and Klaviyo while detailing ACV and market size thresholds.10:26–13:53 · Jason pushing back 0/10 Platform Ecosystem Economics and Extension App Power Laws Jason explains platform app store economics using concrete ARR figures from the Shopify ecosystem, contrasting high day-one attach rates like Klaviyo with lower-tier extension apps.13:53–23:52 · Jason pushing back 4/10 Managing Complex Enterprise Sales and Finding a Late Co-Founder After opening with a satirical riff on generic sales hires, Jason directly challenges the founder's expectation that hiring a VP of sales will free up founder time in complex enterprise deals.

speaking balance: gold is Jason, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Jason 78.6% · guest 21.4%0:00 · Jason 78.6% · guest 21.4%3:00 · Jason 100% · guest 0%3:00 · Jason 100% · guest 0%6:00 · Jason 86.9% · guest 13.1%6:00 · Jason 86.9% · guest 13.1%9:00 · Jason 82.9% · guest 17.1%9:00 · Jason 82.9% · guest 17.1%12:00 · Jason 93.1% · guest 6.9%12:00 · Jason 93.1% · guest 6.9%15:00 · Jason 58.2% · guest 41.8%15:00 · Jason 58.2% · guest 41.8%18:00 · Jason 98.7% · guest 1.3%18:00 · Jason 98.7% · guest 1.3%21:00 · Jason 93.7% · guest 6.3%21:00 · Jason 93.7% · guest 6.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 16:10 Founder clarifies actual question after host rant

Ryan respectfully redirects the conversation after Jason launches into a lengthy parody of hiring incompetent sales VPs, clarifying he already completed the hire using Jason's materials.

 Hardest push from Jason ▶ 17:35 Host shatters founder expectations of delegating sales

Jason bluntly rejects the idea that a solo founder can step away from enterprise calls, warning that complicated deals will immediately be lost without the founder present.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:10 Guest redirects host's mistaken assumption

Ryan educates Jason on his real dilemma, clarifying that he already applied SaaStr hiring principles and actually needs guidance on cataloging massive enterprise product feedback.

 Jason holds their own ▶ 11:15 Host breaks down app store power laws with concrete numbers

Jason demonstrates sharp market command by quoting specific ARR numbers across top-tier and mid-tier platform partners to illustrate revenue concentration.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicJason as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementJason pushing backWhy
VC Appetite in SaaS and the Dominance of AI 8000 Jason delivers an extensive breakdown of current SaaS VC dynamics, citing recent valuation multiples, public market comps, Bessemer and Craft Ventures allocation stats, and specific enterprise spend patterns at ZoomInfo.
The Viability and Economics of Vertical SaaS 8003 Jason gently counters the premise that vertical SaaS is a novel category, walking through historical examples like ServiceTitan, Toast, and Klaviyo while detailing ACV and market size thresholds.
Platform Ecosystem Economics and Extension App Power Laws 8000 Jason explains platform app store economics using concrete ARR figures from the Shopify ecosystem, contrasting high day-one attach rates like Klaviyo with lower-tier extension apps.
Managing Complex Enterprise Sales and Finding a Late Co-Founder 8014 After opening with a satirical riff on generic sales hires, Jason directly challenges the founder's expectation that hiring a VP of sales will free up founder time in complex enterprise deals.

Statements from this episode (13)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: Investor Appetite Is Heavily Limited for Non-AI Startups
“Generally speaking there for the, for now, there is very limited investor appetite for anything that isn't true AI.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 0:56
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: Venture Appetite for Moderate SaaS Growth Is Effectively Zero
“And there isn't any venture appetite for pretty good growth. There just isn't any, there's none, there's zero, absolutely none. There's no appetite in general.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 2:11
Insight
Lemkin: $200M+ Valuations Vanished Due to 10x Math and Public SaaS Multiples
“There basically are no rounds north of two hundred million dollar valuations because for an investor to make 10 X on a two hundred million dollar valuation with dilution, you have to have a two and a half billion dollar IPO. There just aren't very many. Most S…”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 2:52
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: Craft and Bessemer Allocate Over 80% of SaaS Capital to AI
“We had one with David Sachs, who now has three billion at Kraft. And we had an offline discussion with Byron Dieter, who runs Bessemer's cloud practice. And they both said over 80% of our money in SaaS is going to AI.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 3:56
Assertion Supported
Lemkin: 70% of Klaviyo's Revenue Comes from Shopify Customers
“Klaviyo, which was the only IPO of this year is marketing just for e-commerce. In fact, Klaviyo really is just marketing only for Shopify customers. 70% of Klaviyo's almost one billion in revenue only not only comes from e-commerce, it only comes from Shopify”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 8:08
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: Klaviyo Will Eclipse MailChimp and May Pass HubSpot Marketing
“It's gonna eclipse MailChimp, right? And it may even pass HubSpot as a, HubSpot's marketing piece because it's so valuable in e-commerce, right? Because you're so close to revenue.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 8:34
Assertion Supported
Lemkin: Two-Thirds of Shopify Revenue Comes from Financial Services
“Two thirds of Shopify revenue comes from payments and financial services, not from software, right?”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 9:08
Insight
Lemkin: Any Industry with 100K Customers Needs a Dedicated Operating System
“Every industry of any size, any industry with a 100,000 or more customers needs a system of record. They need a core operating system.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 9:24
Assertion Partly supported
Lemkin: Klaviyo is the only SaaS IPO since HashiCorp in December 2021
“They're the only SAS IPO of the last two years. The only SaaS IPO since Hashi Corp in December of 2021.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 11:37
Assertion Partly supported
Lemkin: Gorgias recently crossed $50M ARR
“And they just published their revenue last week. So I can share it. They just crossed fifty million ARR.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 12:08
Insight
Lemkin: Platform apps struggle unless they have day-one high attach rates
“There's these day one high attached vendors that make these applications blow up and the rest struggle, which doesn't mean you shouldn't do them, but it does mean it probably can't be everything for you.”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 13:26
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: 80% of 50+ VP of Sales Candidates Did Zero Pre-Interview Research
“I actually interviewed over 50 VPs of sales this year. Some of them actually for Saster itself. Cause we need one. If anyone really wants this and knows what we're doing, let me know. Other than for a bunch of portfolio companies. And I can't tell you, oh, tho…”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 15:02
Insight
Lemkin: Sales VPs Only Save Time If Previous Product Was Harder
“The only way you get time back when you hire a VP of sales is if the last product they sold was truly harder to sell. If it's truly, they go into an environment that in every way is easier, right? Then you get some time back because they already did it. They a…”
Jason Lemkin Dec 28, 2023 ▶ 20:18
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