The Exchanges

Q Did they like pay up front or anything like that? Or you just took a complete gamble that the things would work out?

A No, it's, it's a gamble. Like we basically, you know, it was the biggest number I could make up on the spot in terms of an annual license. And it's like a really small number by today's standards. Um, and because there was hardware at the time, like they wanted, you know, people who know about Maptain might know us as the company that does those big shopping center directories where you can search for stuff and touch the big screen. Thank goodness we don't do the hardware anymore. Happened for years. Back then it had to be all included. So we charged them a monthly license, but we didn't charge them for the hardware. I, I financed it with my, again, my five-figure life, low five-figure life savings. Um, and it was basically a deal where we'd make that back over the first half months. And then the second half months would be a little bit of margin, but it was real.

AI assessment note: “No, it's, it's a gamble... So we charged them a monthly license”

Q So maybe shifting a little bit, like kind of where are things at now and what's the marketplace evolved to? Like, I can't imagine you're the only, you're, you're the only company selling, you know, this mapping, this type of mapping tool. I mean, are you, and if not, like what has your ability to, because you've been in the market, like what kind of edge has that gotten you?

A Well, so we, I would say we have two buckets of competitors, app competitors and tool competitors. Um, so in the app world, it was mostly startups. I, I'd say we're by far the biggest indoor mapping startup in the world, uh, in terms of customers, revenue, square footage, et cetera. And it's, it's in one way we're doing that right now is because we have these tools and big customers, big partners really recognize that. The people we think of as having made really good tools are like, A hundred billion dollar household names, right? Like Autodesk makes really good tools, right? Autodesk, I don't think thinks of themselves as an indoor mapping company, right? It just so happens that architects everywhere really like AutoCAD. And when they are paid commission to design a building, they'll use AutoCAD. And so the, the billion dollar building in New York gets built, you get a CAD file at the end. And that CAD file persists over time, even though the architect is long gone. And the people who know how to use that tool And have the budgets to figure it out are gone. Um, so there's just a gap in the operating world, but at the end of the day, I think, you know, we're, we're looking up. We're, we're not looking at, you know, who are the other app makers that maybe now have figured it out and need to check the box on having a good tool, but we want to, like, we really look up to what Fig…

AI assessment note: “we have two buckets of competitors, app competitors and tool competitors.”

Q Uh, this was the thing that kind of set you apart. Is that right?

A That's right. Yeah. Like, you know, we'll, we'll be, we'll be as good or slightly better on the app side, but anybody can build an app for you once anybody can draw a map. Once it was investing in tools and realizing that it's about having self-service, like self-serve tools for like my mom who can use Excel, but we'll never figure out AutoCAD. And she needs to be able to edit a map if she's an office manager or a marketing manager at a big professionally managed building. It was that investment and the double down there, which wasn't really rational for a long time, right? If our only goal was to win malls, uh, and we've won malls, but if that was it, we could have just done the behind the scenes mapping update work the whole time. It still would have been a really profitable business. Like we didn't have to make self-serve tools. Um, it did help us win faster, right? Cause the Simons of the world understood it. But we probably could have, like, won it out anyway. But luckily we did invest in these tools, and I talked to investors who look at, like, Our headcount breakdown at 80 people, there's like way too many engineers in their mind versus salespeople, right? Because we've always been investing in product, but it's this product, the tools that, you know, now firefighters are using to maintain maps of indoor buildings before they run inside. Um, literally yesterday, so, you …

AI assessment note: “That's right. Yeah. Like, you know, we'll, we'll be, we'll be as good”

Q we'll move into that, but maybe you're just going back to do things important. Like, what was your mentality at that point? Was it okay? People are, people are signing, people are paying, let's build this thing. This is awesome. Or was it like, you know, were you aware at that point that wait a second, I have three customers in three different verticals, you know, where am I going?

A It's hard to describe how naive and not like dumb we were about this, right? Like YC, I think by that time was two years old or three years old. Maybe, like, not that old, basically. Paul Graham hadn't written half his essays. Um, and, and like, you know, I, like, no one was talking about startup. Everyone was talking about going to Apple, which is where, where the other path in the road was for me. I guess the only thing I was thinking at the time is better not fuck this up, right? Like, we've got, we've got three real customers. We've got At least one employee at that point that we were paying like a co-op student and this guy's awesome. Um, like he's like, like really scrappy dude, did amazing work for us. Didn't come from a lot of means. Uh, so like, I remember when I first met him, he was like crashing in the velocity dorm and then we hired him as a, as a co-op. So like that guy needs to get paid. Like I at least still have some life savings. So it was really important to me that we didn't disappoint any of those people. And it's like survival mode, right? Like hopefully every day you chip away at it. And I think maybe back then we would get like a new lead every month just from random efforts that I wouldn't even say were that targeted or, or, or effortful. And you compare that to like today when I look at Mafton, we get like five leads a day and I just look at it and I f…

AI assessment note: “I guess the only thing I was thinking at the time is better not fuck this up”

Q you, so you go to the straight show that happens. What do you do with your, let's say they'll call it a dozen customers. Do you, do you call them all up and tell them about this idea? Do you build the thing and try and sell it? Like, what's your next move at that point to validate that? Oh, it's not just this one CIO is a common problem.

A Yeah. So I think, you know, I'm, I'm tempted to kind of paint it as like a really clear, like, aha, go do this. And then boom, boom, boom. Um, it's more like, you know, that was the big aha. Maybe by then we already had one or two of our mall customers have access to it cause they want it. They had asked for it and like, oh, that's weird. But like, yeah, that's cool. Please use it. Right. And it wasn't that secure. We didn't have privacy concerns like we do today and info sec. And certainly there was no two factor authentication, but they were happy to log in and Do it themselves. And, and then we thought it was a one-off. This guy says, no, that's all I want. Okay. So that's not a one-off. Uh, and now let's go contact the remaining number of our customers. And it was likely just me reaching out to them and say, Hey, can I show you a demo of what's been happening behind the scenes? And like, do you want to log into this? Right. And, and then, um, but very quickly, I think I switched my sales pitch. So for example, a really big customer that we want in Canada is CF. It's, uh, like CF Eaton Center, CF Sherry Gardens. It's, it's like the branded luxury mall that most people would know. And We weren't the first indoor mapping company to show up trying to sell apps to malls. In fact, there wasn't many other competitors that were already there that we had to displace. And the only wa…

AI assessment note: “now let's go contact the remaining number of our customers. And it was likely just me reaching out”

Q to your case. Like that's in a market that's relatively crowded in a market where it's unclear how you might, you know, really scale it, get to a really big size, you know, having, having gone through it and now being able to think back To what might have been the optimal thing, like, what advice would you give them in terms of what, how they should be playing it?

A Well, you know, first, if, if they're in a market and they have customers and they have customers that are willing to talk to them and pay for their existing products, like, first of all, good job guys, because that's hard to do in the first place, right? If they're anything like me, they didn't grow up with, you know, any sort of business background. It's not like my mom owns, you know, my dad owns a mall and just told me like, this is a really big problem. Go solve this problem, kid. Like I had to go learn this stuff. You have to, you know, I, I remember It was like Ashton Kutcher of all people said, if you work stocking shelves at Home Depot, you're an insider on Home Depot specific things, right? Like, you know which products are flying off the shelf sooner, and you know that for some reason this ant killer is selling better than that one. Um, and you just don't realize that that's like a good insight, but you're there and most people are not. But if you're trying to compete for in the space of what's an actually good idea and a scalable idea, Realize that just by being in business and having enterprise customers, which is customers that pay you money for something that is a commodity, gives you insights into stuff that you take for granted, but most people don't know. Most people, when they try to think of new ideas, are sitting on their couch, and they're thinking about t…

AI assessment note: “just by being in business and having enterprise customers... gives you insights”