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Apr 11, 2025 · 54m · more-or-less

Why Elon Musk May Be Pulling Back from Washington (with Joanna Coles) | More or Less #94 · More or Less Podcast

Joanna Coles · 31m spoken Jessica Lessin · 19m spoken
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In this solo edition of the More or Less podcast, host Jessica Lessin interviews The Daily Beast's Joanna Coles to analyze Elon Musk's contentious role in Washington, Silicon Valley's political anxieties, Meghan Markle's commercial pivot, and the fragmented state of modern news.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 37.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

The hosts as informed peer 3.5 Guest teaching 2.9 Guest disagreement 1.3 The hosts pushing back 1.5
05100:0015:0030:0045:000:51–2:51 · The hosts as informed peer 2/10 More or Less Opening Title Sequence Lighthearted intro and warm rapport. Lessin jokes about venture capitalists working from anywhere while Coles makes self-deprecating remarks about news velocity.2:51–11:59 · The hosts as informed peer 3/10 Inside The Daily Beast: Shakespearean Politics in the Trump Era Coles details The Daily Beast's editorial framing around Shakespearean human drama and cabinet leaks. Lessin validates the analysis and engages collaboratively as a fellow media founder.11:59–20:22 · The hosts as informed peer 5/10 Elon Musk's Washington Role, DOGE, and Potential Exit Coles describes Elon Musk's DOGE role and personal cost, suggesting he did not anticipate physical threats. Lessin gently pushes back, noting Musk deliberately bought a global megaphone to stir controversy 24/7 and should not be considered naive.20:22–28:25 · The hosts as informed peer 7/10 Silicon Valley's Reckoning: AI Hype, China, and Washington Pressure Lessin displays strong beat expertise, citing DeepSeek efficiency gains, cooling tech IPOs, and the upcoming Meta FTC antitrust trial. Coles agrees and adds perspective on Silicon Valley anxiety over Chinese AI competition.28:25–30:56 · The hosts as informed peer 3/10 Washington Power Trips and 'The Swamp' Gossip Coles relays insider gossip from The Daily Beast's 'The Swamp' column regarding Howard Lutnick's claims about directing Elon Musk. Lessin listens and prompts for more Beltway scuttlebutt.30:56–36:55 · The hosts as informed peer 4/10 Lauren Sanchez's Spaceflight and Cosmetic Surgery in Zero-G Coles humorously questions zero-gravity impacts on cosmetic surgery during Lauren Sanchez's spaceflight. Lessin counters with firsthand reporting from the Breakthrough Prize gala mingling with tech titans, Hollywood stars, and Seth Rogen.36:55–41:18 · The hosts as informed peer 2/10 Unboxing Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' Jam and Sprinkles Lessin conducts an on-air unboxing of Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' jam and flower sprinkles. Coles playfully critiques the packaging design and mocks the concept of expensive shortbread mixes.41:18–46:13 · The hosts as informed peer 3/10 Royal Media Dynamics and Meghan Markle's Brand Pivot Coles demonstrates deep British media and royal expertise, explaining how Princess Diana secretly briefed reporters while publicly denouncing them, and argues Markle discarded genuine royal soft power to sell jam.46:13–48:22 · The hosts as informed peer 2/10 Tea at Gloria Steinem's and the Battle for Reproductive Rights Coles reports directly from an afternoon salon at Gloria Steinem's apartment on reproductive rights, Planned Parenthood real estate sales, and interstate legal threats against doctors.48:22–51:45 · The hosts as informed peer 4/10 The Modern News Cycle, Fragmented Narratives, and 2028 Lessin raises a thoughtful meta-question about whether post-truth media narrative manipulation is irreversible. Coles reflects on 24/7 digital journalism cycles and cabinet members positioning for 2028.0:51–2:51 · Guest teaching 1/10 More or Less Opening Title Sequence Lighthearted intro and warm rapport. Lessin jokes about venture capitalists working from anywhere while Coles makes self-deprecating remarks about news velocity.2:51–11:59 · Guest teaching 3/10 Inside The Daily Beast: Shakespearean Politics in the Trump Era Coles details The Daily Beast's editorial framing around Shakespearean human drama and cabinet leaks. Lessin validates the analysis and engages collaboratively as a fellow media founder.11:59–20:22 · Guest teaching 3/10 Elon Musk's Washington Role, DOGE, and Potential Exit Coles describes Elon Musk's DOGE role and personal cost, suggesting he did not anticipate physical threats. Lessin gently pushes back, noting Musk deliberately bought a global megaphone to stir controversy 24/7 and should not be considered naive.20:22–28:25 · Guest teaching 2/10 Silicon Valley's Reckoning: AI Hype, China, and Washington Pressure Lessin displays strong beat expertise, citing DeepSeek efficiency gains, cooling tech IPOs, and the upcoming Meta FTC antitrust trial. Coles agrees and adds perspective on Silicon Valley anxiety over Chinese AI competition.28:25–30:56 · Guest teaching 4/10 Washington Power Trips and 'The Swamp' Gossip Coles relays insider gossip from The Daily Beast's 'The Swamp' column regarding Howard Lutnick's claims about directing Elon Musk. Lessin listens and prompts for more Beltway scuttlebutt.30:56–36:55 · Guest teaching 2/10 Lauren Sanchez's Spaceflight and Cosmetic Surgery in Zero-G Coles humorously questions zero-gravity impacts on cosmetic surgery during Lauren Sanchez's spaceflight. Lessin counters with firsthand reporting from the Breakthrough Prize gala mingling with tech titans, Hollywood stars, and Seth Rogen.36:55–41:18 · Guest teaching 2/10 Unboxing Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' Jam and Sprinkles Lessin conducts an on-air unboxing of Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' jam and flower sprinkles. Coles playfully critiques the packaging design and mocks the concept of expensive shortbread mixes.41:18–46:13 · Guest teaching 6/10 Royal Media Dynamics and Meghan Markle's Brand Pivot Coles demonstrates deep British media and royal expertise, explaining how Princess Diana secretly briefed reporters while publicly denouncing them, and argues Markle discarded genuine royal soft power to sell jam.46:13–48:22 · Guest teaching 4/10 Tea at Gloria Steinem's and the Battle for Reproductive Rights Coles reports directly from an afternoon salon at Gloria Steinem's apartment on reproductive rights, Planned Parenthood real estate sales, and interstate legal threats against doctors.48:22–51:45 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Modern News Cycle, Fragmented Narratives, and 2028 Lessin raises a thoughtful meta-question about whether post-truth media narrative manipulation is irreversible. Coles reflects on 24/7 digital journalism cycles and cabinet members positioning for 2028.0:51–2:51 · Guest disagreement 1/10 More or Less Opening Title Sequence Lighthearted intro and warm rapport. Lessin jokes about venture capitalists working from anywhere while Coles makes self-deprecating remarks about news velocity.2:51–11:59 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Inside The Daily Beast: Shakespearean Politics in the Trump Era Coles details The Daily Beast's editorial framing around Shakespearean human drama and cabinet leaks. Lessin validates the analysis and engages collaboratively as a fellow media founder.11:59–20:22 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Elon Musk's Washington Role, DOGE, and Potential Exit Coles describes Elon Musk's DOGE role and personal cost, suggesting he did not anticipate physical threats. Lessin gently pushes back, noting Musk deliberately bought a global megaphone to stir controversy 24/7 and should not be considered naive.20:22–28:25 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Silicon Valley's Reckoning: AI Hype, China, and Washington Pressure Lessin displays strong beat expertise, citing DeepSeek efficiency gains, cooling tech IPOs, and the upcoming Meta FTC antitrust trial. Coles agrees and adds perspective on Silicon Valley anxiety over Chinese AI competition.28:25–30:56 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Washington Power Trips and 'The Swamp' Gossip Coles relays insider gossip from The Daily Beast's 'The Swamp' column regarding Howard Lutnick's claims about directing Elon Musk. Lessin listens and prompts for more Beltway scuttlebutt.30:56–36:55 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Lauren Sanchez's Spaceflight and Cosmetic Surgery in Zero-G Coles humorously questions zero-gravity impacts on cosmetic surgery during Lauren Sanchez's spaceflight. Lessin counters with firsthand reporting from the Breakthrough Prize gala mingling with tech titans, Hollywood stars, and Seth Rogen.36:55–41:18 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Unboxing Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' Jam and Sprinkles Lessin conducts an on-air unboxing of Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' jam and flower sprinkles. Coles playfully critiques the packaging design and mocks the concept of expensive shortbread mixes.41:18–46:13 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Royal Media Dynamics and Meghan Markle's Brand Pivot Coles demonstrates deep British media and royal expertise, explaining how Princess Diana secretly briefed reporters while publicly denouncing them, and argues Markle discarded genuine royal soft power to sell jam.46:13–48:22 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Tea at Gloria Steinem's and the Battle for Reproductive Rights Coles reports directly from an afternoon salon at Gloria Steinem's apartment on reproductive rights, Planned Parenthood real estate sales, and interstate legal threats against doctors.48:22–51:45 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Modern News Cycle, Fragmented Narratives, and 2028 Lessin raises a thoughtful meta-question about whether post-truth media narrative manipulation is irreversible. Coles reflects on 24/7 digital journalism cycles and cabinet members positioning for 2028.0:51–2:51 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 More or Less Opening Title Sequence Lighthearted intro and warm rapport. Lessin jokes about venture capitalists working from anywhere while Coles makes self-deprecating remarks about news velocity.2:51–11:59 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 Inside The Daily Beast: Shakespearean Politics in the Trump Era Coles details The Daily Beast's editorial framing around Shakespearean human drama and cabinet leaks. Lessin validates the analysis and engages collaboratively as a fellow media founder.11:59–20:22 · The hosts pushing back 4/10 Elon Musk's Washington Role, DOGE, and Potential Exit Coles describes Elon Musk's DOGE role and personal cost, suggesting he did not anticipate physical threats. Lessin gently pushes back, noting Musk deliberately bought a global megaphone to stir controversy 24/7 and should not be considered naive.20:22–28:25 · The hosts pushing back 2/10 Silicon Valley's Reckoning: AI Hype, China, and Washington Pressure Lessin displays strong beat expertise, citing DeepSeek efficiency gains, cooling tech IPOs, and the upcoming Meta FTC antitrust trial. Coles agrees and adds perspective on Silicon Valley anxiety over Chinese AI competition.28:25–30:56 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 Washington Power Trips and 'The Swamp' Gossip Coles relays insider gossip from The Daily Beast's 'The Swamp' column regarding Howard Lutnick's claims about directing Elon Musk. Lessin listens and prompts for more Beltway scuttlebutt.30:56–36:55 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 Lauren Sanchez's Spaceflight and Cosmetic Surgery in Zero-G Coles humorously questions zero-gravity impacts on cosmetic surgery during Lauren Sanchez's spaceflight. Lessin counters with firsthand reporting from the Breakthrough Prize gala mingling with tech titans, Hollywood stars, and Seth Rogen.36:55–41:18 · The hosts pushing back 2/10 Unboxing Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' Jam and Sprinkles Lessin conducts an on-air unboxing of Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' jam and flower sprinkles. Coles playfully critiques the packaging design and mocks the concept of expensive shortbread mixes.41:18–46:13 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 Royal Media Dynamics and Meghan Markle's Brand Pivot Coles demonstrates deep British media and royal expertise, explaining how Princess Diana secretly briefed reporters while publicly denouncing them, and argues Markle discarded genuine royal soft power to sell jam.46:13–48:22 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 Tea at Gloria Steinem's and the Battle for Reproductive Rights Coles reports directly from an afternoon salon at Gloria Steinem's apartment on reproductive rights, Planned Parenthood real estate sales, and interstate legal threats against doctors.48:22–51:45 · The hosts pushing back 1/10 The Modern News Cycle, Fragmented Narratives, and 2028 Lessin raises a thoughtful meta-question about whether post-truth media narrative manipulation is irreversible. Coles reflects on 24/7 digital journalism cycles and cabinet members positioning for 2028.

speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · the hosts 53% · guest 47%0:00 · the hosts 53% · guest 47%3:00 · the hosts 63.9% · guest 36.1%3:00 · the hosts 63.9% · guest 36.1%6:00 · the hosts 24.2% · guest 75.8%6:00 · the hosts 24.2% · guest 75.8%9:00 · the hosts 5.5% · guest 94.5%9:00 · the hosts 5.5% · guest 94.5%12:00 · the hosts 28.7% · guest 71.3%12:00 · the hosts 28.7% · guest 71.3%15:00 · the hosts 23.1% · guest 76.9%15:00 · the hosts 23.1% · guest 76.9%18:00 · the hosts 57.3% · guest 42.7%18:00 · the hosts 57.3% · guest 42.7%21:00 · the hosts 37.7% · guest 62.3%21:00 · the hosts 37.7% · guest 62.3%24:00 · the hosts 79.2% · guest 20.8%24:00 · the hosts 79.2% · guest 20.8%27:00 · the hosts 37.5% · guest 62.5%27:00 · the hosts 37.5% · guest 62.5%30:00 · the hosts 25.8% · guest 74.2%30:00 · the hosts 25.8% · guest 74.2%33:00 · the hosts 67.4% · guest 32.6%33:00 · the hosts 67.4% · guest 32.6%36:00 · the hosts 42.8% · guest 57.2%36:00 · the hosts 42.8% · guest 57.2%39:00 · the hosts 39.8% · guest 60.2%39:00 · the hosts 39.8% · guest 60.2%42:00 · the hosts 0% · guest 100%42:00 · the hosts 0% · guest 100%45:00 · the hosts 19.5% · guest 80.5%45:00 · the hosts 19.5% · guest 80.5%48:00 · the hosts 32.1% · guest 67.9%48:00 · the hosts 32.1% · guest 67.9%51:00 · the hosts 50.6% · guest 49.4%51:00 · the hosts 50.6% · guest 49.4%54:00 · the hosts 0% · guest 100%54:00 · the hosts 0% · guest 100%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 38:00 Coles dismisses Meghan Markle's pre-made baking mix

In an otherwise very collegial chat, Coles delivers her sharpest dismissive critique by flatly rejecting the value of Meghan Markle's mix products, noting it is merely salt and flour that no one needs to buy for $14.

 Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 18:39 Host pushes back on Elon Musk playing the victim

When Coles suggests Musk could not have anticipated the intense physical threats resulting from his politics, Lessin firmly pushes back, arguing it is naive to buy Twitter and intentionally court global controversy 24/7 without expecting real-world blowback.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 41:49 Coles educates on royal tabloid media collusion

Coles draws on decades of Fleet Street and royal knowledge to school the audience and host on how Princess Diana secretly fed leaks to the Daily Mail while in their cars before filing public denials.

 The host holds their own ▶ 24:01 Host demonstrates tech market depth with DeepSeek and FTC trial

Lessin showcases her deep reporting advantage at The Information, diagnosing how enterprise AI spend is leveling out due to DeepSeek efficiency gains alongside stalled IPOs and Meta's impending FTC trial.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicThe hosts as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementThe hosts pushing backWhy
More or Less Opening Title Sequence 2111 Lighthearted intro and warm rapport. Lessin jokes about venture capitalists working from anywhere while Coles makes self-deprecating remarks about news velocity.
Inside The Daily Beast: Shakespearean Politics in the Trump Era 3311 Coles details The Daily Beast's editorial framing around Shakespearean human drama and cabinet leaks. Lessin validates the analysis and engages collaboratively as a fellow media founder.
Elon Musk's Washington Role, DOGE, and Potential Exit 5324 Coles describes Elon Musk's DOGE role and personal cost, suggesting he did not anticipate physical threats. Lessin gently pushes back, noting Musk deliberately bought a global megaphone to stir controversy 24/7 and should not be considered naive.
Silicon Valley's Reckoning: AI Hype, China, and Washington Pressure 7212 Lessin displays strong beat expertise, citing DeepSeek efficiency gains, cooling tech IPOs, and the upcoming Meta FTC antitrust trial. Coles agrees and adds perspective on Silicon Valley anxiety over Chinese AI competition.
Washington Power Trips and 'The Swamp' Gossip 3411 Coles relays insider gossip from The Daily Beast's 'The Swamp' column regarding Howard Lutnick's claims about directing Elon Musk. Lessin listens and prompts for more Beltway scuttlebutt.
Lauren Sanchez's Spaceflight and Cosmetic Surgery in Zero-G 4211 Coles humorously questions zero-gravity impacts on cosmetic surgery during Lauren Sanchez's spaceflight. Lessin counters with firsthand reporting from the Breakthrough Prize gala mingling with tech titans, Hollywood stars, and Seth Rogen.
Unboxing Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' Jam and Sprinkles 2222 Lessin conducts an on-air unboxing of Meghan Markle's 'As Ever' jam and flower sprinkles. Coles playfully critiques the packaging design and mocks the concept of expensive shortbread mixes.
Royal Media Dynamics and Meghan Markle's Brand Pivot 3621 Coles demonstrates deep British media and royal expertise, explaining how Princess Diana secretly briefed reporters while publicly denouncing them, and argues Markle discarded genuine royal soft power to sell jam.
Tea at Gloria Steinem's and the Battle for Reproductive Rights 2411 Coles reports directly from an afternoon salon at Gloria Steinem's apartment on reproductive rights, Planned Parenthood real estate sales, and interstate legal threats against doctors.
The Modern News Cycle, Fragmented Narratives, and 2028 4211 Lessin raises a thoughtful meta-question about whether post-truth media narrative manipulation is irreversible. Coles reflects on 24/7 digital journalism cycles and cabinet members positioning for 2028.

Statements from this episode (12)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Coles: Biden's team maintained tight discipline with no leaks from meetings
“Biden could be a bully too, but it all happened under wraps. His team were disciplined. There were no leaks.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 11:37
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Coles says Trump cabinet members immediately leak to press after meetings
“This team, the minute the meeting stops, they all come out and they all call people. And so you get these fascinating different narratives. They're all leaking about each other. They're all spilling information on each other.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 11:42
Opinion
Coles argues Musk's political involvement has clearly damaged Tesla's brand
“Clearly it's really damaged the brand of Tesla.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 13:23
Opinion
Coles says Elon Musk is the wrong person to lead government cuts
“Putting him in charge of just cutting everything willy nilly, even if there are many places in government, which I think a lot of people would agree need to be cut. And certainly there have been people advocating, you know, getting into the deep bureaucracy. W…”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 15:11
Assertion Contradicted
Coles says Musk plans to leave Washington role in 2-3 months
“Well, what he said was that he was planning to leave in two to In two to three months, his work would be done.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 16:43
Assertion Supported
Coles: X successfully operates on far less spending and fewer staff
“And the truth is that they have been able to run Twitter at much less than they were spending on it with far fewer employees. It's still up and running and it's become You know, the water cooler place again.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 17:24
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Coles warns cheap Chinese AI will dominate globally and expose data
“What I'm hearing is the great anxiety around the Chinese just coming in over the top of Americans with a much cheaper version of AI that, that countries around the world will end up using and China will have direct access to all their information.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 23:38
Assertion Contradicted
Lessin: Enterprises are pausing AI spend increases due to DeepSeek efficiency
“We've done a lot of reporting at the information about businesses that sort of say, you know, we're not increasing our spend right now because we're getting efficiency gains from deep seek and all these other models.”
Jessica Lessin Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 24:05
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lessin: AI frontier models are falling short of expected training gains
“We've also seen that the models haven't been getting the efficiency gains and the training gains, they thought.”
Jessica Lessin Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 24:41
Opinion
Coles: Cozying up to Trump does not protect tech CEOs
“Cozying up to him doesn't appear to save you from anything. If anything, it actually makes them think you're weak.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 27:43
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Coles: Howard Lutnick told people he hired and directs Elon Musk
“But we have a very good story in it this week about Howard Lutnick telling people that in fact, he hired Elon and he told Elon what to do.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 29:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Coles: Netflix and Spotify insiders say Meghan Markle avoids real work
“At least the feedback I heard from people at Netflix and certainly at Spotify was that she sort of pretends to do this, but actually she's not really interested in the work of it.”
Joanna Coles Apr 11, 2025 ▶ 43:58
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