Jan 17, 2025 · 54m · more-or-less
#82: TikTok, Trade Wars & Tech 2.0 · More or Less Podcast
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of the 'More or Less' podcast, co-hosts Jessica Lessin, Sam Lessin, Britt Morin, and Dave Morin debate gender representation and DEI in Silicon Valley, dissect the geopolitical, corporate, and market repercussions of the looming TikTok ban, and examine shifting consumer and wellness trends.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 83.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 6.4 Guest teaching 3.8 Guest disagreement 3.4 The hosts pushing back 4.8
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 15:35 Calling out nursing versus OnlyFans comparison
Britt forcefully calls out Sam for drawing an absurd equivalence between women dominating nursing and women dominating OnlyFans during a debate on executive representation.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 17:40 Host pushes back against biological averages as justificationJessica squarely refuses Sam's biological variance rationale, questioning whether a 95-5 gender disparity in elite power structures is justifiable.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 11:37 Schooling on social dynamics in single-sex environmentsBritt draws upon her multi-year tenure on the Girl Scouts board to educate Sam and Dave on why single-sex spaces eliminate social and attraction pressure, enabling girls to take risks.
The host holds their own ▶ 22:54 Journalistic deep dive into Chinese bureaucracy and Tesla leverageJessica leverages proprietary reporting and sources to dismantle simplistic takeover theories, demonstrating deep domain knowledge of Chinese party dynamics and Elon Musk's strategic vulnerabilities.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Catching Up and Championing Feminine Energy in Tech | 5 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Jessica and Britt banter about the Code with Klossy dinner, while Dave and Sam playfully push back on the framing of 'feminine energy' in tech. Dave points out they already addressed the topic on prior episodes, while Britt playfully quips that the hosts have no choice but to listen as their wives. | |
| AI Coding Disruption and the Economics of DEI Funding | 7 | 4 | 3 | 5 | Britt raises the issue of AI disrupting coding and corporate DEI funding drying up for coding nonprofits. Sam takes over with an economic breakdown of supply-and-demand labor economics versus DEI narratives, while Britt counters that coding fundamentals remain essential to direct AI agents. | |
| Defining Feminine Energy and the Value of Single-Sex Spaces | 6 | 5 | 4 | 5 | Britt questions Jessica on how she defines feminine energy, and Sam pushes back by advocating for meritocracy and moving beyond identity lines. Britt counters effectively from her experience on the Girl Scouts board, schooling Sam on why single-sex spaces reduce social performance pressure for girls. | |
| Dave's Polarity Theory and the Debate on Power Representation | 7 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Dave lays out his electromagnetic polarity thesis for cultural balance, which sparks an intense debate with Jessica and Britt regarding representation in halls of power. Britt confronts Sam directly when he compares nursing to OnlyFans, and Jessica vigorously presses Sam on biological destiny versus corporate power disparities. | |
| Looming TikTok Ban and the DJI Drone Airspace Conspiracy | 6 | 3 | 3 | 4 | Jessica outlines ByteDance legal reporting before Sam spins a speculative theory regarding DJI lifting US airspace flight restrictions in retaliation for the TikTok ban. Britt actively prompts the hosts to unpack the details, expressing surprise at DJI being Chinese-owned. | |
| Speculating on Elon Musk Acquiring TikTok as China Leverage | 8 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Jessica demonstrates deep journalistic expertise explaining Chinese municipal power structures and Elon Musk's Tesla leverage needs in China. Britt challenges host assumptions about Zuckerberg's political posture and notes that giving TikTok to Elon would be a slight to Zuck. | |
| The Economic Impact of Banning TikTok on Creators and Meta | 6 | 6 | 3 | 4 | Britt demonstrates clear market domain expertise by educating the hosts on how creator-led businesses rely on TikTok for tens of millions in revenue and how private equity will orchestrate roll-ups. Sam then pivots to analyzing Meta's advertising tailwinds and internet balkanization risks. | |
| Digital Trade Imbalances, EU Regulations, and AI Chip Controls | 8 | 3 | 2 | 6 | Dave and Sam lead an in-depth policy discussion on digital trade imbalances and European regulatory burdens on American tech giants. Jessica extends the analysis with reporting on Biden administration semiconductor whitelist controls and chip smuggling loopholes. | |
| Presidential Inauguration Weekend and Tech at DC Parties | 6 | 2 | 2 | 3 | The conversation shifts to inauguration parties and tech attendance in DC, where Jessica and Sam share personal experiences navigating political social circuits. Britt notes Carrie Underwood performing and relays why Silicon Valley figures want to witness the historic event despite partisan misgivings. | |
| Wellness Festivals, Britchella, and the Clean Girl Aesthetic | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | Britt introduces the concept of wellness festivals and her pitch for Britchella, schooling the hosts on early curfew nightlife trends among Gen Z. Sam challenges the practicality of dancing after running a marathon, sparking a light competitive dispute with Britt over who ran one first. | |
| NYC Congestion Pricing and Consumer Elasticity | 7 | 3 | 3 | 6 | Dave and Sam examine the behavioral elasticity behind NYC's nine-dollar congestion toll, openly acknowledging their own out-of-touch bubble compared to average commuter budgets. Jessica and Dave trade calculations over weekly commute expenses and marginal traffic reduction. | |
| The Internet Phenomenon of Girl Math | 6 | 5 | 4 | 5 | Britt introduces the internet phenomenon of 'girl math' to counter Sam's economic assumptions, playfully mocking male mansplaining when challenged. The conversation closes on a somber note reflecting on the Los Angeles wildfires, where Dave offers heartfelt perspectives on community recovery. |
Statements from this episode (23)
Jessica Lessin: Tech will take wrong turn without feminine energy advocacy
“If we don't get loud about feminine energy, I think, you know, this industry also is gonna, like, take a turn in the wrong direction.”
Britt Morin: DEI pullbacks will severely hurt female-focused coding non-profits
“I do think there are going to be some severe implications to a lot of these nonprofits.”
Sam Lessin: Big tech funded coding non-profits for talent pipelines, not philanthropy
“These tech companies are not philanthropies. This all started with a demand for more computer science graduates. People could be qualified for the jobs.”
Britt Morin: Coding education will adapt to instructing AI agents, not disappear
“Like any role with that AI is disrupting. You need to know how the sausage is made so that you can tell the agents What you want the thing to do, right? So I don't know that it goes away. I think it just changes structure, like the curriculum itself changes.”
Sam Lessin: DEI narratives hijacked tech's basic labor supply economics
“I'd actually argue in the last 10 years, those narratives about just straight up Supply and demand and meritocracy got slightly hijacked by like DEI style. We're doing this for equity reasons or for access reasons, as opposed to straight economic reasons. That…”
Sam Lessin: Cultural shift has freed people to speak their true beliefs
“In this last few months, even, we've kind of switched where there was a lot of things that were unsayable, or you could say, but it was, like, dangerous. Not dangerous from a practical perspective, but, like, it's just, like, You were supposed to say, then now…”
Jessica Lessin: Systemic bias persists and single-sex spaces remain vital for girls
“I just like firmly, firmly believe that there's still systemic bias that exists in the world and that Not a hundred percent of the forums need to be single sex, but like the power of these young girls being together and being the leader in their class and gett…”
Britt Morin: Girls-only clubs must exist because girls face less social pressure
“At least with girls, they happen to feel less pressure when they're not around boys, you know, because I think even from a young age, you're, you know, it's the sort of catcalling, like women know, women and men have some level of attraction, and that feels li…”
Sam Lessin: Men dominate top leadership because they are higher-beta risk-takers
“Because men have nothing to lose and are worthless, and therefore are very high beta, right? Like, it's just like, you just get more, like, the dumbest people in the world are men, and some of the smartest are. The highest risk takers are men. Guess what? It t…”
Jessica Lessin: The Information reported TikTok plans to pull US service
“The information reported last night that TikTok will pull it for US users if that day comes.”
Sam Lessin: TikTok is the biggest unforced national security blunder in history
“I've said for years that this is like the number one unforced national security history issue, probably in history.”
Sam Lessin: DJI announced removal of US restricted airspace flight limits
“At the same time, DJI, like today, announced the drone company that they're no longer limiting drones, like, from flying in restricted airspace in the United States, which I'm sure is actually unrelated, but it's a hilarious story.”
Jessica Lessin: Inability to sell Full Self-Driving in China is crushing Tesla
“He can't sell full self-driving in China, and it's crushing Tesla compared to the local market, and of course he's so dependent on other things.”
Jessica Lessin: Musk backed Trump primarily to gain bargaining chips with China
“Elon needs bargaining chips with China. In fact, probably his whole move towards Trump you know, in addition to getting his space regulation and all that kind of stuff, was to get more bargaining chips with China.”
Britt Morin: TikTok ban could spur PE rollups of creator brands
“And I mean, could spur like a legit M and A. Feast. I bet private equity is, like, already figuring this out. Like, which things to salvage and buy for, like, 10 cents on the dollar. Do, like, various roll-ups of these brands that were popular on TikTok. Reboo…”
Jessica Lessin: A TikTok ban may not be good for Meta long-term
“I'm still not convinced that it's actually good for Meta long term for this to happen, but short term, you clearly remove a lot of ad dollars.”
Sam Lessin: US TikTok Ban Will Prompt Foreign Countries to Ban Facebook
“I think it's pretty reasonable that some countries turn around and say, well, wait a minute. You guys don't want TikTok. We don't want Facebook. That's an American thing, right?”
Dave Morin predicts US will pressure EU to ease digital regulations
“I think that we're going to see America actually start to stand up for, Hey, we're like military allies with you guys. Like what the heck we need to be better internet allies with you guys. And our trade balance on the digital side should balance out a lot mor…”
Sam Lessin: Chinese tech firms will reincorporate in Mexico to evade bans
“You're just gonna end up exactly what we already have in the physical world, where basically, you'll just have laundering through Mexico, right? Where, like, all the Chinese internet companies will become Mexican internet companies that Chinese people have to …”
Jessica Lessin: Rank-and-file tech product managers are attending Trump's inauguration
“Your rank and file PM is going.”
Sam Lessin: NYC traffic is down roughly 7% under congestion pricing
“To be clear, it's, I think what I saw somewhere pass through some feed is like, it's something like down seven percent, but that seven percent is an enormous amount in terms of the marginal impact.”