May 8, 2026 · 59m · more-or-less
Why the Met Gala Hates Tech, Elon vs OpenAI Drama, and the Rise of Chinese AI Models · More or Less Podcast
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In this episode of the 'More or Less' podcast, hosts Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, and Britt Morin analyze the macroeconomics of AI infrastructure, the public backlash surrounding tech wealth at the Met Gala, the rise of Chinese open-source models like DeepSeek, the Elon Musk vs. OpenAI legal trial, and practical AI productivity workflows.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The hosts hold 81.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The hosts as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 2.4 Guest disagreement 3.0 The hosts pushing back 4.0
speaking balance: gold is the hosts, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 28:05 Britt Insists the Public is Terrified of AI Speed
Britt forcefully contradicts Dave's claim that AI disruption is exaggerated, insisting people and schools nationwide are panicked by the compressed timeline.
Hardest push from the hosts ▶ 28:25 Dave Rebuffs Public Panic and Regulation ClaimsDave bluntly interjects with 'Who is everyone?' and firmly denies Britt's claim that broad panic exists across the country or that government policy is attempting to slow progress.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 50:28 Britt Teaches Jessica Practical AI Workflow AutomationBritt reveals that Jessica is months behind on connecting Granola to Claude Code and walks through a detailed step-by-step method to automatically generate a sales CRM from meeting notes.
The host holds their own ▶ 40:43 Jessica Details OpenAI Trial Evidence and Altman's StrategyJessica showcases deep journalistic expertise by explaining courtroom dynamics, Brockman's ten-million-dollar payout, and Altman's long-term foresight in declining direct equity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The hosts as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The hosts pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| More or Less Podcast Animated Title Sequence | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | Lighthearted introductory banter where Jessica jokes about rearranging her closet and visiting Home Depot while her husband is away. Britt and Dave tease her about DIY projects without any serious debate. | |
| The Met Gala, Anti-Tech Sentiment, and Wealth Inequalities | 5 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Jessica outlines the Costume Institute fundraiser and the backlash against the Bezos sponsorship, framing it as a convergence of techlash and wealth inequality. Britt chimes in supporting the techlash framing and highlighting broader economic pressures, while Dave questions the cultural relevance of the event. | |
| Trump Administration AI Regulation and Chinese AI Models | 6 | 1 | 1 | 5 | Jessica cites reporting that the Trump administration might adopt Biden-style AI regulations, which Dave strongly pushes back on as unsubstantiated rumors. Dave pivots to discussing open-source Chinese models and demonstrates his local hardware setup running inference on his desk. | |
| Software Democratization Debate: Developer Tools vs Economic Inequality | 6 | 2 | 4 | 6 | Dave argues that AI coding tools will democratize software creation and reduce global inequality, but Jessica pushes back by pointing out that democratizing tools does not democratize economic capture. Britt defends Dave's optimistic creator economy thesis, though Jessica quickly corrects her mistake regarding Rupert versus James Murdoch. | |
| AI User Adoption Limits, ChatGPT Growth, and Corporate Layoffs | 5 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Dave highlights that adoption of AI developer tools remains tiny in real numbers and that ChatGPT user growth has slowed down, demanding better product design. Britt and Jessica debate whether ongoing corporate tech layoffs are driven by genuine AI efficiencies or post-pandemic overhiring. | |
| Public Perception of AI, Doomer Narratives, and Policy Limitations | 5 | 3 | 6 | 6 | Britt pushes back against Dave's downplaying of public anxiety, asserting that ordinary citizens and organizations across the nation are stressed by the blistering speed of AI disruption. Dave bluntly challenges her assertions, questioning who exactly is experiencing this and denying that the government is actively slowing anything down. | |
| DeepSeek Funding and the Elon Musk vs OpenAI Legal Trial | 8 | 3 | 3 | 4 | Jessica provides extensive reporting on Anthropic's multi-billion dollar compute backlog and details from the ongoing Elon Musk versus OpenAI trial, including Greg Brockman's testimony and Altman's equity structure. Britt contributes Polymarket prediction odds on the trial's outcome and Musk's tweeting activity. | |
| Polymarket Trends, OpenClaw Updates, and Practical AI Workflows | 6 | 7 | 4 | 4 | After Dave provides an architectural update on OpenClaw's stability and nonprofit foundation, Britt educates Jessica on how to leverage Granola connected to Claude Code to extract CRM insights and replace expensive software like Salesforce. Jessica playfully questions the terminology before acknowledging the workflow. | |
| Jessica's Solo Movie Date and Flake Culture | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | The group winds down with personal lifestyle and pop culture discussions, including Jessica's solo theater visit after friends flaked and Dave's thoughts on Stagecoach country artists and the decline of the Star Wars franchise. |
Statements from this episode (20)
Lessin: Musk and SpaceX Dedicated 100% of First Colossus Project to Anthropic
“We have seen perhaps the strangest AI compute deal to date, which is Anthropic Colossus. So SpaceX, Elon Musk. Have given over their first Colossus project. 100%. Not like 40%.”
Lessin: Bezos Co-Hosting Met Gala Triggered Protests and Boycotts
“The big news this year was one of the honorary co-hosts were the Bezoses, and specifically Lauren. And this led to, it seemed, you know, from behind the scenes, just externally protests, internally a lot of consternation, people refusing to come.”
Lessin: Trump administration is considering Biden-style AI pre-training reviews
“We are now seeing a Trump administration seriously considering, essentially taking a Biden approach to AI regulation, which was much more hands-on, which was contemplating reviewing models and training ahead of time.”
Morin: White House backchannels dismiss reports of Trump AI regulations as false
“I'm mostly hearing at least in my back channels that I'm involved in, that that is fake news, that there's not really, you know, You look at, like, Sachs and these folks that are working on this stuff in the White House, like, this is not how they view things.…”
Morin: Every founder he knows is trying to use Chinese AI models
“Every single founder, every company I know, everyone I am talking to about OpenClaw is like trying to figure out how to use Chinese models to make their AI pipelines more efficient by the day”
Morin: AI could reduce software-driven inequality over the next 20 years
“I think this is, there's like a likelihood that the inequality that has been driven by software entrepreneurship up until this point is that kind of a local maxima and that because today anyone in the world can create software at a pace that was impossible six…”
Lessin: Democratizing a medium does not democratize its economics
“Just because you've democratized access to the medium, it doesn't mean you've democratized access to the economics.”
Morin: ChatGPT has not topped 800M users and growth is declining
“ChatGPT itself still isn't beyond eight hundred million people, and it's declining in growth right now.”
Lessin: Meta signaled more layoffs by admitting unknown optimal company size
“Meta had recent layoffs and came out and said, we can't confirm that there won't be more, and we don't actually know the optimal size of this company.”
Morin: Tech layoffs stem from pandemic overhiring, AI is just an excuse
“Everybody is doing this because they overhired in the pandemic. AI is a convenient excuse.”
Dave Morin: AI Labs Used Christian Theological Doomerism to Market AI
“They've only used the doomer kind of, we've talked about it at length on this pod. Like it's like a Christian theological doomer. Like we are creating a God. You should fear it. They've used this one version of a message. It's actually ancient spiritual techno…”
Morin: Only 4 million people use GitHub Codex
“There are only four million people using codex. That's like no one, literally no one. Is using AI engineering tools. No one in the grand context of the world.”
Lessin: OpenAI and Anthropic represent half of major cloud deal backlogs
“And then we charted of the, we just had earnings, of the backlogs in deals for Microsoft, Oracle, Google, and Amazon, what percentage are OpenAI's commitment and Anthropi's commitment? It's together, they're about half, ok?”
Lessin: Trial revealed Altman paid Brockman $10M from family office
“It was revealed that Altman, because it was a nonprofit back then, was paid Greg ten million dollars out of his, like, own family office and kept it from Elon, and so all these sort of alliances were being formed beneath the surface, and it just seemed like a …”
Lessin: Greg Brockman's OpenAI stake is worth about $30 billion
“You know, it also came out that Brockman's stake is worth about thirty billion dollars, which is a point that he was just grilled on and asked, well, why haven't you donated it?”
Polymarket gives Elon Musk a 41% chance of winning against OpenAI
“Polymarket gives Elon a 41% chance of winning the case.”
OpenAI court filing reveals Elon Musk approached Brockman about a settlement
“OpenAI also revealed in a filing that Musk had approached them about his, Brockman, about a potential settlement two days before.”
Morin: OpenAI Engineers Contribute as OpenClaw Maintainers
“They have actually a couple of people contributing from the open AI engineering team have been contributing as open source maintainers. Obviously Peter is the largest contributor and he technically works at open AI.”