The Exchanges

Q So are you escalating intentionally almost to provoke a response?

A No, it's not that conscious. Or unconsciously. Yes, it's, in, in, in distressed relationships, the most common pattern we see is one person is demanding and getting angry and criticizing, and the other person is defending and distancing. And the way we understand the demanding is, they can be talking about anything, ok? They can be talking about finances or sex, or they can be talking about anything, or how bad this other person is, right? They can be talking about anything. But if you listen, To the emotion, you look at their face, and we're pretty good at that right now. What they're really saying is, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And if the other person doesn't respond, they say it louder. They say, I'll get you to respond to me. Where are you? You're a bad partner. Oh, that'll get your attention, right? But unfortunately, what I have to do to get your attention is threaten you, and then you go with the threat, and you say, I don't want to talk right now.

AI assessment note: “No, it's not that conscious. Or unconsciously. Yes”

Q Is that the beginning and the end when you stop reaching out, or is that still salvageable at that point?

A It's salvageable if you work on it, and often you need help because you're lost at that point, and we don't educate people about relationships. We teach them trigonometry in school, but we, heaven forbid, we teach them about the most important thing of all, which is relationships. So people get lost, and they start to protect themselves, and it gets worse and worse. But if they come into therapy with us, People say, you know, can we heal this? I say, yes, you can heal this, but if you have to work at it, it's not going to be easy. You can heal it, and we know how to do it, and we've done research study on it. We, we, we know how to do it, and we know that the effects last three years down the road, right? It's, but you have to be able to work on it. Healing an injury is, It is a special kind of hold me tight conversation focused around the injury. You know, you have to go look at your, your negative dances that you get caught in the demon dialogues. You have to understand how you got so distant from each other in the first place, how there wasn't safety and connection in the relationship. You have to be able to at least create some safety and balance in the relationship. You have to create some sort of security. We call that's the end of stage one of EFT. You deescalate the negative patterns of disconnection and conflict in your relationship. You create a certain safety, and th…

AI assessment note: “It's salvageable if you work on it, and often you need help”

Q So let's back up for 1:02. Then what are the warning signs that you're approaching that so that if anybody's listening before they reach this detachment where you, you can't reconnect, what are the trigger, like what are the flares that they should be watching?

A When you, you, you can't find your longing for your partner. When you've stopped being upset or agitated by the fact that your partner isn't available to you, when you've turned away to other things in your life for support and caring, when, you know, um, you know, when you, you don't feel, you're starting to lose that need to emotionally connect with them, when you realize that when you think about them, you don't get any response from your nervous system, you don't get any emotional comfort, you, you've Stopped looking to them for support and comfort, and you stopped putting them into that important place in your life where they matter more than anybody else, and you, you realize that you're starting to withdraw and shut down, and you know, and people have been protesting a long time. They start to burn out. That's what, that's the way I see it. They, they, they, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? Where are you? After a few years, it's like, I can't bear this anymore. I get depressed. I go into despair, and then I give up, And actually giving up feels like a relief, because I'm exhausted, and I'm burned out with saying, are you going to talk to me? Are you going to, I, and then they get burned out, and there's a, if they come in right when they're burned out, we work with them, and they can start to re-engage, but it's, it takes time, and the other partner has to wo…

AI assessment note: “When you, you, you can't find your longing for your partner.”

Q So are you escalating intentionally almost to provoke a response?

A No, it's not that conscious. Or unconsciously. Yes, it's in, in, in distressed relationships, the most common pattern we see is one person is demanding and getting angry and criticizing, and the other person is defending and distancing. And the way we understand the demanding is, they can be talking about anything, ok? They can be talking about finances or sex, or they can be talking about anything, or how bad this other person is, right? They can be talking about anything. But if you listen, To the emotion, you look at their face, and we're pretty good at that right now. What they're really saying is, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And if the other person doesn't respond, they say it louder. They say, I'll get you to respond to me. Where are you? You're a bad partner. Oh, that'll get your attention, right? But unfortunately, what I have to do to get your attention is threaten you, and then you go with the threat, and you say, I don't want to talk right now.

AI assessment note: “No, it's not that conscious. Or unconsciously. Yes”

Q Is that the beginning of the end when you stop reaching out or is that still salvageable at that point?

A It's salvageable if you work on it and often you need help because you're lost at that point and we don't educate people about relationships. We teach them trigonometry in school, but we, heaven forbid, we teach them about the most important thing of all, which is relationships. So people get lost and they start to protect themselves and it gets worse and worse. But if they come into therapy with us, People say, you know, can we heal this? I say, yes, you can heal this, but you have to work at it. It's not going to be easy. You can heal it, and we know how to do it, and we've done research study on it. We, we, we know how to do it, and we know that the effects last three years down the road, right? It's, but you have to be able to work on it. Healing an injury is, He's a special kind of hold me tight conversation focused around the injury. You know, you have to go look at your, your negative dances that you get caught in the demon dialogues. You have to understand how you got so distant from each other in the first place, how there wasn't safety and connection in the relationship. You have to be able to at least create some safety and balance in the relationship. You have to create some sort of security. We call that's the end of stage one of EFT. You deescalate the negative patterns of disconnection and conflict in your relationship. You create a certain safety. And then you h…

AI assessment note: “It's salvageable if you work on it and often you need help”

Q children and sort of like empty nesting and retirement and these big sort of markers in relationships. But I think, like, let's start with, based on what you know about love and how we're brought up, How do we choose a mate? How do we go into that decision, um, with just, I'll leave it there. How do we choose a mate? I'll leave it as broad as I can.

A Well, um, of course, there's lots of issues there, and sexuality comes in there, you know, I mean, we, we are drawn, especially when we're young adults, we're drawn to what we see as sexually attractive. I mean, that primes Our approaching people, you know, it primes our desire to get close, but I think we focus on that a lot, but there's a lot more to it than that. Um, who you're attracted to, it won't just be, um, you know, as my daughter says, who's the hottest man in the room, right? It's, but it seems to me that she can walk into a room and almost every man in the room is hot. That's kind of the stage she's in right now. So, you know, well, how does that help you differentiate then? But We bring our histories with us. You know, I ask couples when they come in, I don't say, have you ever had any secure attachment? Because that's a bit abstract. I say things like, um, when you grew up in your family, could you, if you got upset, could you turn to someone in your family? And do you, would they reliably come and hold you? And some people say, oh yes, yes, my, my dad would come and hold. And other people will say, hold me? When I cried? Just listen to the voice, you know the answer, right? This is foreign territory for this person. So, I think people who've experienced safe connection with a parent have a big advantage, and research says that they're more likely to have friends…

AI assessment note: “we are drawn to what we see as sexually attractive... We bring our histories with us.”

Q You think I'm a bad partner. What about this thing that you did?

A That's right. You fight back. You attack back. So we look at all these negative patterns in relationships, and we, we feel, we understand them at this point. And so we help the demanding, critical partner. We say, could you help me? You're talking to your partner about how you're just, you're disappointed in them, and that you feel like this relationship is Empty for you, and you're expressing a lot of anger and frustration, but then you turned, and you looked away, and your eyes filled with tears. Could you help me? This is very painful for you. And the person says, well, of course it is. He's so distant. He, she goes back to attacking him, but we'll just stay with what we just said. We go into the, the emotional channel, and we stay there, and in the end, the people come. We say, yes, you're very, There's something here that's very painful for you, and you're getting very angry, and you push him to talk, and she says, yes, I push him. You push him, and if you don't push him, and if he won't talk, no matter how angry you get, and how critical you get, then her face changes, and she goes back to what I saw a few moments before. She says, then I'm all by myself. Yes, you're all by yourself, and he doesn't care about me, and I'm not important to him, and I don't matter to him, and I'm by myself, and then she weeps. And that's the desperation under the anger, but you don't have, i…

AI assessment note: “That's right. You fight back. You attack back. So we look at all these negative”

Q So let's back up for 1:02. Then what are the warning signs that you're approaching that so that if anybody's listening before they reach this detachment where you, you can't reconnect, what are the trigger, like what are the flares that they should be watching?

A When you, you, you can't find your longing for your partner. When you've stopped being upset or agitated by the fact that your partner isn't available to you, when you've turned away to other things in your life for support and caring, when, you know, um, you know, when you, you don't feel, you're starting to lose that need to emotionally connect with them, when you realize that when you think about them, you don't get any response from your nervous system, you don't get any emotional You, you've stopped looking to them for support and comfort, and you've stopped putting them into that important place in your life where they matter more than anybody else, and you, you realize that you're starting to withdraw and shut down, and you know, and people have been protesting a long time. They start to burn out. That's what, that's the way I see it. They, they, they, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And after a few years, it's like, I can't bear this anymore. I get depressed. I go into despair, and then I give up. And actually giving up feels like a relief, because I'm exhausted and I'm burned out with saying, are you gonna talk to me, are you gonna, I, and then they get burned out, and there's a, if they come in right when they're burned out, we work with them, and they can start to re-engage, but it's, it takes time, and the other partner has to work at it,…

AI assessment note: “When you've stopped being upset or agitated by the fact that your partner isn't available”

Q How do you, how do you pick a couples therapist? Aside from sort of like what techniques do you use, and is it evidence-based? Like, what are the other variables?

A Well, you have to feel safe with that person. Um, and I think that's a very key variable that people don't understand about therapy. A good therapist knows how to help you feel safe and heard. Um, and if you don't feel safe and heard, then find another therapist. A good EFT therapist knows how to The minute you talk to me on the phone, the minute I talk, I talk to you on the phone as a client, my whole job is to make you feel safe. Why would you explore difficult, difficult places with me if you don't make, if I don't help you feel safe? It's counterintuitive, but we're used to that, you know, with mental, with professionals, you know, we don't even demand our doctors make us feel safe. They don't even teach doctors how to talk to people You know who they teach to make people feel safe? Air Canada pilots. I don't know who teaches the Air Canada pilots, but if you notice, the Air Canada pilots, and they speak low and slow, and it's about me, they say, Hi, folks. We're just going through. A little bumpy piece here. It will only last a few more minutes. I'm going to take us down to... No, something feet, 30,000 feet, to try and give you a smooth ride, and we'll be in Houston right on time. This is your captain speaking. What's he saying? He's saying, it's okay. I'm your big daddy in the sky. I'll take care of you. You are safe. It's a bit bumpy, but don't worry about it. And liste…

AI assessment note: “Well, you have to feel safe with that person.”

Q What role does sex play in a happy, healthy marriage?

A Sex plays an important role. Um, I think the tricky part is, I mean, sex can be different at different times. You know, um, sex can be many things at different times. Sex can be purely about the release of tension. Sex can be, um, erotic play. Sex can, it can change in a relationship. There's flexibility. You can, you can, it can mean different things at different times, right? But, In general, if you listen to people in happy, healthy relationships, um, they'll talk more about sex as a bonding activity. It's not just about release. It's not just about orgasm. It's not just about eroticism. It's, um, we make, you know, human beings make love face to face. It doesn't have to be face to face, but you get the idea. We make love face to face, and there's, certainly there's a A huge bonding element. It's not accident that an orgasm, we're flooded with oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone, you know, and, um, if you look at securely attached folks, they'll say, oh, well, sex is fun, and it's, um, it's about eroticism, and it's about, you know, um, being pleasured physically and sensation, but it's also about being close to my partner. I like being close to my partner. The interesting thing about that one is the cliche, Out in the world is men only want an orgasm. Well, if that's true, you know, I mean, masturbation is a much more efficient path to that, and it's simpler, and you don't…

AI assessment note: “they'll talk more about sex as a bonding activity. It's not just about release.”

Q What role does sex play in a happy, healthy marriage?

A Sex plays an important role. Um, I think the tricky part is, I mean, sex can be different at different times. You know, um, sex can be many things at different times. Sex can be Purely about the release of tension. Sex can be, um, erotic play. Sex can, it can change in a relationship. There's flexibility. You can, you can, it can mean different things at different times, right? But in general, if you listen to people in happy, healthy relationships, Um, they'll talk more about sex as a bonding activity. It's not just about release. It's not just about orgasm. It's not just about eroticism. It's, um, we make, you know, human beings make love face to face. It doesn't have to be face to face, but you get the idea. We make love face to face. And there's certainly, there's a huge bonding element. It's not accident that at orgasm we're flooded with oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone. You know, and, um, if you look at securely attached folks, they'll say, oh, well, sex is fun, and it's, um, it's about eroticism, and it's about, you know, um, being pleasured physically and sensation, but it's also about being close to my partner. I like being close to my partner. The interesting thing about that one is the cliche out in the world is men only want an orgasm. Well, if that's true, you know, I mean, masturbation is a much more efficient path to that, and it's simpler, and you don't have…

AI assessment note: “they'll talk more about sex as a bonding activity.”

Q children, and sort of like empty nesting, and retirement, and these big sort of markers in relationships. But I think, like, let's start with, based on what you know about love and how we're brought up, How do we choose a mate? How do we go into that decision? Um, with just, I'll leave it there. How do we choose a mate? I'll leave it as broad as I can.

A Well, um, of course, there's lots of issues there, and sexuality comes in there, you know, I mean, we, we are drawn, especially when we're young adults, we're drawn to what we see as sexually attractive. I mean, that primes our approaching people, you know, it primes our desire to get close, but I think we focus on that a lot, but there's a lot more to it than that. Um, who you're attracted to, it won't just be, um, you know, as my daughter says, who's the hottest man in the room, right? It's, but it seems to me that she can walk into a room and almost every man in the room is hot. That's kind of the stage she's in right now. So, you know, well, how does that help you differentiate then? But We bring our histories with us. You know, I ask couples when they come in, I don't say, have you ever had any secure attachment? Because that's a bit abstract. I say things like, um, when you grew up in your family, could you, if you got upset, could you turn to someone in your family? And do you, would they reliably come and hold you? And some people say, oh yes, yes, my, my dad would come and hold. And other people say, hold me? When I cried? Just listen to the voice, you know the answer, right? This is foreign territory for this person. So, I think people who've experienced safe connection with a parent have a big advantage, and research says that they're more likely to have friends in h…

AI assessment note: “We bring our histories with us... because they've got a model.”

Q What are some of the other reasons that sex stops in relationships?

A Oh, sex stops for lots of reasons. Sex stops. It's like every other dance you do with your partner. Things get in the way and block it, and if you can't talk about it together and help each other with it, you get stuck. You know, sex stops because a sexual problem comes up, and if the couple can't deal with it together, the classic one that I talk about in Hold Me Tight is erectile dysfunction as a man gets older. You know, the man, and it's not the erectile dysfunction itself. That's often manageable. What isn't manageable is the way people deal with it. You know, the way people deal with problems, the way people protect themselves or their relationship from problems backfires and becomes a prison, right? So, you know, men are humiliated. I'm not a man anymore. I remember we did, do a lot of work with heart and We have a program called Healing Hearts Together, which is an educational program, which we did with the Heart Institute in Ottawa, right, that we, we, um, did, and I remember working with one couple when the man said, well, he was very, you know, big, he was a manly man, you know, like her, right, well, you know, since I had the heart attack, you know, my penis doesn't always work, and so I'm not doing it. Because I'm not a man anymore, and this is, and he's just saying, this is just, this is too difficult for me. I'm not, I'm not doing it, right? And so then, you know…

AI assessment note: “sex stops because a sexual problem comes up, and if the couple can't deal”

Q Isn't that kind of what pornography is teaching us there?

A Yes. Basically, pornography teaches us that. But if you listen to men, and I've listened to a lot of men, if you listen to men talk about, in a more emotionally open level, What men talk about is not that different from what women talk about. Men, in the end, will, I can't tell you how many times this has happened, men will say, um, well, you know, I can give myself an orgasm if I really want an orgasm. What I want is to be desired. I want to be desired. And the most concrete way of feeling desired is for you to desire me to come close and for us to make love. I want to be desired. And, you know, um, Our society is a bit insane about sex. I mean, my field's insane about sex. We have one discipline called sex therapy and another discipline called relationship couple therapy. How ridiculous is that? I mean, that's ridiculous, ok? And what I'm talking about is, um, actually attachment science helps us understand sex and relationships, and for goodness sake, you know, we need to put those two things together. It's ridiculous that sex therapists don't know anything about relationships. That's ridiculous, you know, and it's ridiculous that relationship therapists don't learn anything about sex. It's like, are you kidding me? You know, it's like, so, um, but sexuality is important, and for a secure couple, it's a bonding activity, and it's about closeness and connection, as well as ab…

AI assessment note: “Yes. Basically, pornography teaches us that.”

Q Is there any other, uh, relationship sort of advice that you want to give before we wrap this up?

A We've been talking for a long time. I don't know. I just want people to know. That there is a science of love. That science has changed our, our world in so many ways. You know, there's a science of how to take care of your teeth. There's a science of, you know, almost everything these days, you know, there's a science of love and relationships too. And, um, I want people to know it exists, and I want people to know the promise of it. And it's out there. But it's, it's not something that anybody's making a huge amount of money from, so it's not marketed on front of the New York Times or in the magazines, and things that are marketed, big distractions like porn, the porn industry isn't interested in my message, you know, because I say that, you know, porn's just a trap, it's going down the rabbit hole, it's not going to meet your needs in the end, you know, it's, it's, right. It's making somebody, so this isn't making, this isn't highly marketable from the point of view of capitalism. So it's a hard message to get out in some ways. One lady from the New York Times told me, I said, would you please tell me why it isn't, why you put this rubbish all over the New York Times about relationships, sensational rubbish. Could you please tell me why you don't think of putting all over your paper? We've cracked the code of love. We know how to do this now. We need to educate everybody abo…

AI assessment note: “I just want people to know. That there is a science of love.”