The Exchanges

Q audience and talks about the business of Bumble. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This, Resilience Edition from NPR. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Resilience Edition, and here's more from my conversation with Whitney Wolf Hurd, founder of the dating app Bumble. Here's a question from Clarissa Fries. Clarissa asks, what precautions does Bumble take to make online dating safer?

A Thank you for asking that, because this is a huge, huge focus of ours. So first and foremost, we have this incredible feature called photo verification, and what's so interesting to us is photo verification had really only existed For credit cards or for your finances, but why would we treat your finances as more secure than the people you're meeting? I mean, there's nothing more important than your own personal security as a human being. And so photo verification is this incredible feature where you take a photo of yourself in real time and it compares it to your profile photo. And within 30 seconds to one minute, it will analyze, are you who you say you are? And if you are who you say you are, then you get a check mark, and you are verified, and so that way you know you're not getting catfished, you know you're not talking to somebody pretending to be someone else, so that's just a first step. We have incredible block and reporting features, so if something makes you uncomfortable, or you feel like somebody might be a risk to you or to others, you can block and report, and we take that very seriously. We have a huge team that looks into all of this, and so those are just two examples of how we really try to create a Accountable ecosystem.

AI assessment note: “first and foremost, we have this incredible feature called photo verification”

Q How did you, how did you get people to sign up? How did you get the word out about it? Because there's lots of competition in this space. There's tons and tons of dating apps. How did you, how were you able to tell people that and get them to know what to do?

A Well, I kind of had a little bit of a playbook. I had maybe done it once before, so I went right back to SMU, this time decked out in yellow, and, uh, I went back into all those sororities, and I, I spoke from the heart. Listen, I have lived through the pain points of male-dominated relationships. I have felt it. I know what it feels like, and guess what? Every other woman in that sorority house Chances are she's felt it too. So, you know, I'm speaking from the heart, and I'm speaking to them about how they can be empowered, and they make the first move, and they go after what they want, and me and my early team members, I mean, there's, the girls are at my office right now. They're still with us. We went in there, and we took pizza boxes with stickers on it, and offered a piece of pizza to the fraternity boys that would get on it. We wrapped cookies in Bumble stickers. We took all sorts of goodies, and we kind of growth hacked our way to Uh, success.

AI assessment note: “I went right back to SMU... took pizza boxes with stickers on it”

Q So, so, so where did, where did the name Bumble come from?

A The name Bumble is actually really funny. So a woman who was, um, a really actually a great, um, mentor to me for the first couple of years of Bumble, her name is Michelle Kennedy. She named it on a whim one day because it was such a struggle. I wanted Bumble to be Moxie, M-O-X-I-E, like you've got Moxie, like you've got courage, right? Because you'd have Moxie, you made the first move, Moxie. And unfortunately there's a really, um, powerful company that exists somewhere in America that It has trademarked every format of the word, so we couldn't get that, and then we were sitting there for weeks. Oh my gosh, it was a disaster. We had probably a thousand words in the running, and then one morning she said, you know, I think she had, funny enough, I think she had called her husband a bumbling idiot. She's got this really adorable British accent. She said, what about bumble? And I said, uh, no way. Like, that's like fumble, that's like bumble and bumble, the hair product. I hate it, and then Andre was like, Bumble, Bumble. I love Bumble, and he checked the domain, and we could get the domain. It was a miracle. Like, in what world could we get Bumble, but we couldn't get Moxie, we couldn't get all these other words. And so, after that, I was, um, talking to who, she ended up becoming one of my, she was my, like, third hire. Her, her and her family are really close friends of mine, …

AI assessment note: “Michelle Kennedy. She named it on a whim one day”

Q barbecue, right, like, 23 years ago, and then, you know, I remember there was, like, in the, in the eighties when I was a little kid, I remember, like, there's matchmaking, right, and then internet dating really starts in the nineties, and then apps is how young people are connecting today. What's, like, the next version of this? How are people going to be connecting in 10 years from now?

A So the next version of this, this is going to catch you off guard, but It's meeting at the barbecue, but via Bumble, ok? So I think the next horizon is going online to get offline. So in the near future, it will not be unimaginable to get on Bumble, and instead of, you know, swiping yes and no on a bunch of people, you might be swiping yes or no on things that sound compelling to you in the coming days. You know, maybe you're in the mood to go to a barbecue that has certain music playing at it on Friday night, and we know that there's 35 other people going, and you can see that half of them have some level of compatibility to you, but we don't disclose who they are until you get there, and we let serendipity and fate kind of do a little bit of its own old-fashioned work once you arrive. So I think that is one piece of this. I think the other piece of this is, and I cannot Emphasize this enough. It's where I'm spending 80% of my free time right now. AI is how we are going to meet people.

AI assessment note: “So the next version of this... It's meeting at the barbecue, but via Bumble”

Q think about, I mean, there are infinite ways to connect a meet today, more so than ever. I mean, you can do it from your bedroom, right? And yet, there is an epidemic of loneliness in the United States and even in other countries. Given the fact that there are so many more ways you can connect today than ever, what, why do you think that is? What explains that?

A So the pandemic did not help. It completely exacerbated the issue. But here's the thing. You started this by saying you can meet people from anywhere now. You're, we're all online. We're all super connected. The reality is we're all very connected and disconnected at the same time. When you are on social media, you are technically, by definition, connected, but you are emotionally disconnected. So friendship has moved online, and it has actually killed friendship. Chatting with your buddies on TikTok and Instagram does not count as relationship. That is not a soulful, real relationship, and candidly, It creates more of a voyeuristic fear of missing out dynamic than it does a real safe connected environment. So what you've seen us do with Bumble for Friends, our new standalone friendship app, is we've said let's use tech to connect, not tech to disconnect. And there's a real, real gap here. And there are not enough products in the world that are actually technically engineered to get you online to then go offline. In fact, the monetization models on the majority of social media Is dependent on you being on your phone as much as possible because they're ad businesses. We are not an advertising business. Sure, we have some advertisement, but we are a subscription model because we don't care if you sit and use our product for two hours or two minutes. In fact, everything we are wor…

AI assessment note: “you are technically, by definition, connected, but you are emotionally disconnected.”

Q millennial, you know, when, when I was sort of teenager and younger, um, I mean, our, our society was just a lot less progressive around gender, sexuality. Young people are, are just much more open to different views on sexuality, gender, and, you know, many people have, have sort of different approaches to, to having romantic relationships. So how do you be everything to everybody, or, or maybe you don't?

A I think we've, we've kind of taken the approach that irrespective of gender, irrespective of sexual preference, safety, kindness, accountability, honesty, Really leaning in with the foundational values of the business is what supercharges anyone being able to find anyone. So we've really tried to steer away from being a product that is known just for this or just for that. Now, that might sound contradictory to some degree because we've always kind of been known as the app where women make the first move. But the message there is not about Prioritizing one gender over another. It's about creating an ecosystem that is safe and welcoming and prioritizes kindness and does not tolerate abuse, does not tolerate bad behavior. You know, we don't have settings that force you to look for only this one gender. We have spent a lot of time and energy over the last several years trying to become more inclusive and Across the gender and sexuality spectrum, but we are not the app just for fluid daters. We are not the app just for the gay community. We are not the app only for heterosexual relationships. We are the app that really stands for prioritizing safety and kindness. And, you know, there are too many studies out there to count that if you start degrading the equality of women, you degrade all minority communities. And so by focusing on women's equality, it's really to pave a path For m…

AI assessment note: “we've kind of taken the approach that irrespective of gender, irrespective of sexual preference”

Q on hundreds of dates, right, because they're paying subscribers, but if this AI model works, like, better than you expect, and all of a sudden, like, you're matching people perfectly, and like, they're going on the first date, and boom, they're engaged, They're done as Bumble customers. I mean, what are the implications of that? You know, you make the algorithm better, and then you actually have fewer repeat visitors.

A Every single Saturday, and I mean it, it's like clockwork, I get at least one text message from someone in my network that they're at a Bumble wedding, and that Bumble was just mentioned either in the vows, in a groomsman's speech, in a bridesmaid's speech, or it was on the menu, or it was in the photo booth, and it had been integrated some way, somehow. Why do I mention this? A success story is worth more than 200 failed dates. Let's just say we have 50 forever relationships. Those 50 forever relationships have now left Bumble app, the dating app, But they have, throughout their dinners and lunches and gym and, and, and professional lives, they have told countless people. They have pollinated the product. They have been brand ambassadors for us in such a way that those 50 success stories become a flywheel of growth. So, 50 success stories is worth more than thousands of failed dates, because those failed dates turn into the reverse flywheel of negative feedback, and so we're actually absolutely aligned with the customer finding success, because their success is our success, and we're in this to help them find healthy and equitable relationships.

AI assessment note: “those 50 success stories become a flywheel of growth”

Q Um, Whitney, just very briefly, have you, um, have you hired during this period of time? Have you actually Scaled up to meet demand of new people onboarding and, and setting up profiles?

A You know, it's, it's not so much to meet demand because we have a really well staffed team, but this is an opportunity to hire in a way that we never thought about before. Usually where we're just hiring at our two main locations or three main locations. Now that things are moving remote, we're opening up our talent pool opportunities. So we're just thinking more broadly and differently. And of course this has posed New demands, right? Like, we need to lean into social growth more, and so you hire for that, or we need to double down here, you hire for that, and so we're definitely actively hiring right now, and we're very fortunate to be able to do that.

AI assessment note: “we're definitely actively hiring right now”

Q what happened was once this COVID thing really became a reality, you started to see a spike in people connecting digitally, but not a spike in people meeting up face to face, which to me, I would think that actual physical meetings has probably declined across the board for all dating. I would imagine that people were just scared to meet. So is that a trend you've also been seeing?

A So we're seeing a decrease in this casual culture of dating where you might go out with someone for a night and then you don't see them again. That has decreased significantly, but remarkably more meaningful relationships are coming out of this. So you're getting people and they're spending days, if not weeks, video chatting. We've heard of these really incredible stories of people ordering from the same restaurant in and having a dinner party with each other through the screen. They're watching movies or reading books together, or they're doing projects. They started gardening or whatever people started doing all this banana bread stuff. And it's been really incredible. So the amount of success stories we have heard and seen come out of this. And when I say success stories, I mean, we are exclusive together type of love. We have heard of countless stories of this because of not having this transactional experience. You know, see each other for a moment in real life, forget about them the next day. Not only that, but the friendship success stories, those are the ones that have really struck me as fascinating because people can't see their friends right now, and so many of us have to travel to see our friends anyway, and that's been wiped out for, you know, the time being, and so seeing people check in on their community through Bumble has been amazing.

AI assessment note: “we're seeing a decrease in this casual culture of dating”

Q Which was supposed to be a dating app?

A Yeah, it was like a flirting app. It was like connecting people to flirt, right? And after we were really unable to get Cardify to gain significant traction, I think we all, you know, the first few of us were kind of like, maybe we need to shift gears, you know, and I was 22 years old. I had just come out of college. I was thinking very much like a college student still. And I was like, hmm, this will work. And I think I was so excited about the fact that there was something that I and my friends would use versus Cardify, which was something I personally would have never used. And again, it was not a new idea. You have to think about what existed already. Dozens of dating apps, flirting apps, connecting apps. I mean, there was already the behemoth, which was Match.com, right?

AI assessment note: “Yeah, it was like a flirting app. It was like connecting people to flirt”

Q So let me just jump out of the story for a sec, because I want to ask you about this idea that, that dating apps, even, even Bumble with, you know, mission or purpose to empower women, even an app like Bumble, uh, you know, does it contribute to, to just kind of like a, a culture of hookups?

A Well, so here's what's interesting. If the hookup is taking place, and the woman is empowered and feels comfortable and confident in that, then I say more power to that, you know. I don't care what you do on Bumble. If you want to, you know, spend the rest of your life with someone you meet on Bumble, phenomenal. If you want to hang out with them for only a night, but you're going to wake up the next day, and you're not going to feel terrible about yourself, that's what this is all about. It's about reverse engineering The dynamics of how men and women feel. And Bumble is not just a hookup app. I mean, I can't tell you how many emails I get a day about Bumble weddings, Bumble babies, Bumble engagements. Now we're launching Bumble Biz. We have, um, hundreds and hundreds of thousands, if not in the millions at this point, of active BFF users, which are, you know, young women matching with other young women, kind of in that merci capacity I spoke about earlier. They're finding roommates. They're going on trips together. They're building social circles in new cities. It's really not a dating app anymore.

AI assessment note: “If the hookup is taking place, and the woman is empowered... more power to that”

Q So you guys are still a really young company. Do you, do you like stay up at night worrying about a competitor or somebody else coming in and just, you know, totally replacing you?

A We really truly aren't super worried about competition for one reason. I really believe anybody can copy a product. Anyone. I'm at the UT campus speaking to you right now. I could go to the engineering school, probably find five really talented young engineers, and they could build Bumble. With the right support, somebody could rebuild any piece of technology. It's, it's engineering. However, You cannot just copy someone's brand and become them. There has to be authenticity when you build a brand, and there has to be true purpose, and so, yes, you're right. Anybody could go and build a competitor version of Bumble, but where I don't think they can just come in and, and sweep us off our feet is, I don't know if there's another group of people with the exact same story, or the exact same mission and motive, and That goes back to what I lived through that summer of 20 14, and what landed on my phone every morning, and it was, I almost built my remedy to the, the hardships that I personally was going through, and Bumble saved me.

AI assessment note: “We really truly aren't super worried about competition for one reason.”

Q you know, I think you're the youngest female founder to do so. Um, how has being the CEO of a public company changed you as a leader? Has it, has it made you more cautious? Has it made you more, um, you know, because now, obviously, when you say things, it can move stock price, it can, you know, affect shareholder sentiment. Has it, has it changed how you operate?

A You know, I think Every single day, public company or not a public company, we're all learning and we're all growing and we're all being challenged on different levels. And if you look at the past, call it four years of my life, I've gone through the most dramatic personal changes and most dramatic professional changes, um, in my entire existence, all in the same kind of chapter. I had my first child, took Blackstone on as a, as a shareholder, all within the same few weeks. Pandemic hit. I became the group level CEO with, you know, a whole new slew of responsibilities. And then we took our company public in February of 20, 21, when I had a 16 month old. And I was still dealing with a lot of personal struggles, postpartum depression. I was having major health issues. I almost Had a near fatal birth complication with my first child. So that was, that was a whole, um, undertone in and of itself. And I had to really rapidly go through a crash course of what it means to be a very serious, very responsible, very deliberate technology executive. In this case, a publicly traded CEO. I am at my core an entrepreneur. I am a founder. I am a creative founder. I think a million miles a minute and I see multiple years into the future. And when you're a publicly traded company, you need to see 90 days ahead at the same time. So using your brain to look 10 years ahead and 90 days ahead all in …

AI assessment note: “when you're a publicly traded company, you need to see 90 days ahead at the same time.”

Q think about, I mean, there are infinite ways to connect a meet today, more so than ever. I mean, you can do it from your bedroom, right? And yet, there is an epidemic of loneliness in the United States and even in other countries. Given the fact that there are so many more ways you can connect today than ever, what, why do you think that is? What explains that?

A So the pandemic did not help. It completely exacerbated the issue. But here's the thing. You started this by saying you can meet people from anywhere now. You're, we're all online. We're all super connected. The reality is we're all very connected and disconnected at the same time. When you are on social media, you are technically by definition connected, but you are emotionally disconnected. So friendship has moved online, and it has actually killed friendship. Chatting with your buddies on TikTok and Instagram does not count as relationship. That is not a soulful, real relationship, and candidly, it creates more of a voyeuristic fear of missing out dynamic than it does a real, safe, connected environment. So what you've seen us do with Bumble for Friends, our new standalone friendship app, is we've said let's use tech to connect, not tech to disconnect, and there's a real, real gap here, and there are not enough products in the world that are actually technically engineered to get you online to then go offline. In fact, the monetization models on the majority of social media Is dependent on you being on your phone as much as possible because they're ad businesses. We are not an advertising business. Sure, we have some advertisement, but we are a subscription model because we don't care if you sit and use our product for two hours or two minutes. In fact, everything we are wor…

AI assessment note: “When you are on social media, you are technically by definition connected, but you are emotionally disconnected.”

Q Because dating apps, I think, I imagine, are most, mostly guys are, are signing up for, for dating apps, right?

A Well, my theory at that time was they hadn't built, been built for women yet. Let's just look at this from, from the basics. Men are raised from very early age to be the go-getter in a, in a heterosexual relationship. Go get her. Go, go make the move, right? And women, on the flip side, are trained to play hard to get. So here you're telling men to be overtly aggressive, and here you're telling women to To be the inverse of that. And so now you're, you're training two human beings to act in opposite directions of each other. And so what you do when you do that is you set both up for failure. You set the men up to be constantly rejected, and you set the women up to be at risk of, of aggression and abuse, right? And so here we have this world that behaves this way. Now, add another element, which is a profile, right? A digital, um, A shield where you can hide behind a username or a profile photo, and you don't have to be accountable. And so, um, when you, when you put women in control, you completely reverse the rules. So she now has the confidence to go after what she's interested in. And the man on the other end doesn't feel rejected. He feels flattered. And then all of a sudden you've balanced the behavior.

AI assessment note: “my theory at that time was they hadn't built, been built for women yet”

Q You know, um, obviously stock price is just one metric, but it's a very visible and public metric, right? And it's often how people evaluate a company who don't, may not know all of the fundamentals, but, you know, your stock price is, um, It's not bad, but it's close to its fifty-two-week low. What can you as a CEO practically do to change that, if anything?

A So you can delete it off your phone. It's the wrong metric to focus on. Instead, you're much better off reading the App Store reviews. You're much better off reading the feedback from your customer, because the stock market is the wrong voting machine to be listening to. I think you get a little distracted by that in the first few quarters because you've got A lot of really intelligent investors expecting a lot of, of different things from you. And at the end of the day, they invested in you because you knew your customer and you knew your business and you had, um, you had a compelling view on the world and a way to solve a really important problem. And the way to turn a stock price around is to deliver, right? That's the only way out is through. And so it's ultimately about putting your head down and putting your blinders on, And listening to your customers, talking to your customers, and building a really good experience. And then separate from that, it's really how do we continue to invest in our brand? Because I do believe that Bumble's brand is such a distinguishing factor for us. It's something that people feel emotionally attached to. And it's really now about innovation and execution and, and candidly delivering for our boss, which is our customer.

AI assessment note: “And the way to turn a stock price around is to deliver, right?”