The Exchanges

Q Going into that race. But she did not wear Adidas shoes running that race. What's, what happened? What was the story?

A So it's a great story, and that was probably only a month and a half, two months into the brand, uh, lifetime. And, um, I got a phone call on a Friday evening From one of the English junior runners, and she said to me, I've heard you've got this new shoe. I'm going to the World Mountain Running Championships in Alaska. Any chance you could arrange a pair of shoes for me? And I said, yes, no problem at all, you know. So I said, when are you going? And she said, tomorrow. So, uh, I arranged for her to collect a pair from Pete Bland on the way to the airport. And, um, the night before the woman's final, um, There was a dump of about three or five inches of snow, and Melissa Moon, who was a New Zealander, only had racing flats, so she had, I think, as you say, she was sponsored by Adidas, and she had some Adidas racing flats, so she woke up in the morning, and there was all the snow, and she only had these road running flats, so she frantically went around asking if anyone had some shoes. And that very pair of shoes that I arranged for that junior runner, she loaned them to Melissa.

AI assessment note: “that very pair of shoes that I arranged for that junior runner, she loaned them”

Q of people listening are like, well, I have an idea, but it's too niche, or I don't know if it's going to sell. And it feels to me like at that point, this was still very niche, right? You're focused on a very small subset of runners with a very particular and unique set of circumstances. So presumably you had to ask yourself, is this going to be sustainable business?

A Yes, so I knew that there were about five or 6000 fell runners in the UK, so it's quite a small market, but quite easy to market to because they, you know, subscribe to the same magazines, and they go to the similar races, and it's a community, so I thought that that was a good place to start. Right. And we could work out from there, so whenever you Launch a brand. You've got to find, well, what's our differentiator? And where's the niche or gap in the market that we're going to go for? And that's when I decided to launch it for the fell and mountain runners. But I was very specific not to call it just fell running. And we didn't, whilst we started and our home was in fell running, I always had that vision. We need to be a broader brand and we need to have international appeal.

AI assessment note: “I knew that there were about five or 6000 fell runners in the UK”

Q these cycling events and pass out cliff bars. And that's really how it started. And I guess you and, and Graham, uh, you did something similar, right? You would pack up your car with shoes and just go to like mud races or running, right? I don't know, you know, like these trail races around, around the UK and just like have your shoes there for people to, to see.

A When we launched the product and had it all available, uh, But we had a four-wheel drive, uh, pickup, and we filled the back with shoes, and, uh, and I actually used to go to races, and the first weekend when we launched the brand, when we had the product available, it was at a, uh, a large mountain marathon where Pete Brand was retailing, and we were selling the shoes there, so I was there myself, and telling the story, talking about the technical aspects and the benefits of our shoes, and And started selling them, and I had a couple of people come to me the next morning, because this is the night before the race, and it was actually a two-day race. And, um, they were saying to me, well, can I wear this for the race? And I said, well, I wouldn't recommend wearing a new shoe for a two-day mountain marathon. I said, really, you want to get used to the shoe and break it in, yeah. And then the next morning, I I was having a coffee with Pete and Matt, and three of the runners came up and looked at me and gave me the thumbs up and pointed at their feet, and they were wearing the shoes for the start, and I thought, wow, here's me launching a new brand and a new shoe, and these guys are going to run a two-day mountain marathon in it, and they've never run it before, so I thought, this is make or break, you know, I'm gonna, I just hope it works out. And it was great, actually, because …

AI assessment note: “we had a four-wheel drive, uh, pickup, and we filled the back with shoes”

Q I'm not mistaken, the first shoe you made and you make shoes that still look like it was, it just looked different than other kinds of shoes. It was like when I first saw, saw your shoes, I was like, God, this is what the Wolverine would wear. You know, am I right about that? Was it, was it, because it looked like a completely, like, kind of weird, right?

A It did, but that was where we took quite a purist design approach, so the sole was quite aggressive, uh, because it was targeted for fell runners, and we had quite a low back on the shoe also, so it wouldn't put pressure on the Achilles tendon, and it had quite a high front and lace-up, so that you could get a good lace-up, and when you're running downhill at speed... Your foot doesn't bash forward and damage your toes or toenails, so that was part of the look, and yes, you're right, it was very distinctive, and we had a met cradle, which gives you a very good hold around the foot, and still to today, all our shoes carry certain DNA all the way through their design.

AI assessment note: “It did, but that was where we took quite a purist design approach”

Q is interesting because this is your brand, And we've had this conversation on the show before with founders. You're basically saying goodbye to it. I'm just wondering emotionally, was that, was that tough at all? I mean, I would have a hard time personally with that because your brand, your product becomes part of your identity, and you're essentially selling it, and you have to eventually walk away from it.

A It's very difficult, and, you know, I've been through that cycle, particularly when you see it's not tracking as well as you would hope it would, or that your vision is for the brand, and when some of the decisions that are taken are not ideal. So, you know, there we were, we were part of this large Japanese group. So, I mean, they're a billion dollar Group. They have a number of brands in Northern Asia, which they very strong. I chose them as a partner because they understand technical brands, and they also are very good at clothing. So what they got from the deal was footwear expertise and knowledge from us, and we got clothing from them. But it has its challenges, you know, they're Japanese corporate, very respectful, very considerate, but they They are slow on the decision-making process, and everything has to go back to Japan to take decisions, and here was a company that I'd built on the whole philosophy of being nimble and a real challenger brand, and suddenly I'm sitting as a 20% minority shareholder with only a small amount of influence, and we were only a small part of their big group.

AI assessment note: “It's very difficult, and, you know, I've been through that cycle”

Q That's a famous mountain, right? Mountain Snowdon, right? Is that in Wales, right?

A That's correct. So it's in North Wales, and it's the largest mountain. Mountain in North Wales, in, in Wales, and there's a, a race, which is an international race there every year, so I went to that. I was fortunate. I had, uh, made contact with a farmer that farmed near Snowdon. His name was Tim Davis, and, uh, I made contact with him and sent him a pair of shoes, and he came up to me before the race, and, uh, and he was wearing my shoe, and he said, uh, I'm gonna wear your shoe today. He said, uh, And Tim, even though he was local, he had never won Snowden. I think he had come second and third before, but he had never won it, and he won the first international race only two weeks after launching the brand, wearing this new shoe of mine, and he was so pleased because this is his local race, his local mountain, and of course that was grateful For me, because I just had so many people coming to me after the race wanting to know about the shoes, wanting to buy the shoes, and, uh, that started part of my sponsorship where I was giving some product to some top athletes. I gave some product to some Italian athletes, and I sold some product to some other UK athletes, and that's where it all started from there to get international word out on the brand.

AI assessment note: “That's correct. So it's in North Wales, and it's the largest mountain.”

Q time in many ways. You're on the road all the time, and, and trying to run a business with a tiny team, and Trying to be everywhere and to promote the brand. Meantime, on a personal front, your, your personal life is kind of, and again, I'm trying to be really sensitive here, but I think it's important to acknowledge it's, it's, I think it's kind of falling apart, right?

A Well, it's always, it's always difficult when you're juggling so many balls and you've taken that risk and you sort of committed and you can't pull back because you've got enough momentum. You've got to follow it through. But the big thing that surprised us and caught me out was the 2008 crash market crash. The factory that we were working with changed our terms to when we actually placed the orders. Which was a huge change to the terms that we were on, and it just put so much pressure on me, and I managed to secure another loan through a US bank, but I had to sign personal guarantees with this, and I can remember the bank manager saying to me, he said, Wayne, just to let you know, he said, you signed this document. He says, if you drop this ball, he says, the whole company's gone. He said, everything was That you own is gone. And that put a lot of pressure on my personal relationship with my wife, because she was less prone to taking risk, and she was much more cautious. So actually, unfortunately, we ended up getting divorced, and, ah, I went, ah, on my own way, and put more effort into innovate. And in a lot of ways, I had so much pressure on me. I had to make it work, and I took it as far as I could up until 2012, and then I felt at that stage I had no options, so I went to the marketplace, and we went through a process, and I raised some capital through a private equity de…

AI assessment note: “unfortunately, we ended up getting divorced, and, ah, I went, ah, on my own way”

Q So, all right, you are now, once again, the owner of this business, and you're in a slightly different position than you were in when you were doing like, you know, loan guarantees and begging banks to give you money, and now you've got a pretty well-financed business. You own it. You call the shots. Tell me your plans. What do you want to do?

A The big plan is to grow the brand to its full potential, and to be able to transition back to chairman of the business. As a brand, you know, people believe the brand is bigger than it really is, which is good, because we're projecting ourselves very well as a brand. Our marketing is very good. We've got some of the most technical product available in the marketplace, and just in the short time I've taken back Ownership and control of the business, um, it's in really good shape. We've done a lot of good things. We've taken good decisions, and the team, despite them working from home during COVID, have responded very well and pulled together very well. The business is in a lot better shape now than it was when I took over the business, which is good, good to say.

AI assessment note: “The big plan is to grow the brand to its full potential, and to be able to transition”