The Exchanges

Q And I think you left that mailroom job like after a year or maybe two and went to work briefly at your dad's real estate company. But then you went back to EMI, but this time with a better, with like a better job, right? Like helping to, I guess, produce cover songs or something like that?

A Yeah. So my job was sort of a song plugger, which was any copyrights EMI, you know, owned from, say, I don't know, country artists from America, I would listen to Thousands of songs, you know, over a period of time, and then try and get other people to record them, and a lot of these songs were, uh, hits in America, weren't hits in the UK, and I would then try and find a well-known artist to cover these songs, so I would meet with A&R guys on a regular basis, or try to, which was honestly really, really difficult to do, and once you were in, you had about 30 seconds, And if they didn't like what you were doing, they would basically just throw you out.

AI assessment note: “Yeah. So my job was sort of a song plugger”

Q So you're broke, um, you had a mortgage on your house, and what did you do at that point? I mean, did you, I'm, I'm assuming that part of you knew that you would be ok because you had already had experience with success, or was it a low point? Do you remember feeling like I failed.

A Well, I was making anything to make money. So there was one sort of craze that happened. They were called mega mixes. And what a mega mix was is that you would find a session singer and say, I don't know, ABBA, you do an ABBA mega mix. So you would just find singers who sound like ABBA and just record 10 ABBA songs and And get a DJ to mix one song into the next, into the next, put them on 12 inch, and sell them as export records. And we, we, we could sell 10,000 at a time, if we were lucky, and make a decent profit. So I, so I just jumped on this, and I was making, making tons of these records, and I, and I, I did make a Wham Megamix. Unfortunately, George Michael didn't like the WAM Megamix. So we were taken to court and, uh, George Michael's lawyer was a guy called Tony Russell. So as we lost this, this case, I walked up to him and I said, Mr. Russell, um, you absolutely killed us in there. Would you mind representing me in the future? I just liked him. And so when all this Terrible things were happening in my life. The one person I reached out to at that point was this lawyer, Tony Russell, and I said, look, I've got myself into a real mess. I had negative equity on, on the house. I owed the bank a lot of money. I had nothing, basically. And, uh, I said, Tony, what do I do? And he said, uh, you're gonna have to find a major label, Simon, now. To back you. Uh, and that means …

AI assessment note: “Well, I was making anything to make money.”

Q Uh, and from what I read, you, you pretty much hated it, right?

A I, I didn't actually hate the job. I'll tell you what I experienced. Um, I kind of was bullied a bit. There were people, uh, who were my age, by the way, a little bit older, who would work in, say, the copyright department of EMI Music Publishing. You know, they, they were what I would call desk jobs. So they were my age, and I'm wandering around with my mail card, and they used to be sort of sneering, you know, like, oh, here comes, you know, the mail guy, you know. And they were just rude. So, I just was frustrated, I suppose. I didn't like them. I didn't actually want their job. I just didn't like being sneered at. Having said that, I actually quite liked the job, um, because I thought eventually, I'm gonna get out of there, and I'll find a job, you know, because I started to understand what a music publishing company actually does. And actually being in the mailroom, I used to see some of the checks that turned up. I'm like, my God, these people are making a fortune.

AI assessment note: “I, I didn't actually hate the job. I'll tell you what I experienced.”

Q at your time, it was like, somebody would be listening to Smiths, not Toy Boy, right? Like, that kind of person would just have utter contempt for, for that kind of popular music. And I wonder whether you were, because you were onto something, you understood that people were gonna like that song, and it didn't matter what the, sort of the Smiths crowd might have thought of it, right?

A It's a, you're, you're, you're absolutely spot on. You've hit the nail on the head. That's, this is what I had to deal with. And to your point about, you know, The song itself. I actually thought it's a very commercial song. Uh, I could, I could Picture in my mind, people liking the song. I liked the song. I thought the melody was brilliant, and it just sounded like an obvious hit record. I mean, it's, what, what I never did, though, I never tried to pretend that I could produce a record or be a musician, because I couldn't, I can't produce records. I can't play instruments. I don't know what note anyone's any, Singing it, whether it's C, B, D, or G, I have no idea. So I only, I, I base everything I ever do based on, do I like it? I, I, I never guess. It's like, do I like it? Guess or no?

AI assessment note: “I could Picture in my mind, people liking the song. I liked the song.”

Q And it, and some people have it, and some people really have to work on it and learn it. It doesn't, you don't come across as, like, a two-dimensional person in that, like, you come across as somebody very comfortable on TV. So, but was it uncomfortable for you?

A No, because I'd done so many auditions in my life, because we were always creating bands and groups, you know, that was all we ever used to do. I mean, I spent most of my year auditioning people, and I knew what auditions were like, you know, they were like, Most of the time people aren't very good. You have to be honest. They're pretty quick. And what I wasn't going to do was change who I was just because I was on TV. I wasn't going to lie to these people and say, oh, I think you're amazing and everything's going to happen because I knew the reality, you know, which is, it's hard enough if you can sing. I mean, it's impossible if you can't sing. So I was just frustrated that first year thinking, I just want to find a star. And if we don't find a star, I'm going to look really stupid. So I'm getting increasingly frustrated.

AI assessment note: “No, because I'd done so many auditions in my life”

Q Why were you not interested? I mean, this was massive exposure for your business at the very least.

A I just didn't love the whole being on TV that much. I mean, I kind of loved the idea of signing the artist. The being on TV just, you know, wasn't really my thing, if I'm being honest with you guys, genuinely. And then a friend of mine who I really respected, I spoke to her and said, I'm in a bit of a dilemma at the moment. You know, they want me to do the show in America. I don't know if it's going to work there or not, and she said, well look, Simon, knowing you, Either way, you're going to beat yourself up. If it is a hit, and you say no, you're going to beat yourself up. If it isn't a hit, you could say, if I was on the show, maybe I could have made it better. So I'm like, yeah, you're right, you're right. Okay, so I, I agreed. And by the way, I didn't ask for any money, uh, uh, for myself on both the British show and the American show on the first year. I said, I don't want a contract. I don't want to be paid. If it works, then we're going to have another conversation if it works.

AI assessment note: “I just didn't love the whole being on TV that much.”

Q change your life. It changes how you see the world. But before that time, Would you have called, I mean, were you, such a weird question, and I, I know Brits particularly hate this question, but were you happy? I mean, would you have called yourself a happy person? I mean, you were so successful outwardly, making a lot of money, you were a celebrity, traveling all over the place.

A I don't think so, particularly, no. No, I don't. Uh, I did actually remember saying to myself, before Eric was born, is this as good as it gets? Because you get very stupidly get caught up in ratings battle, battles, uh, chart positions, you know, I, I know this is important, but I, I, I started to think that was more important than the quality. Um, and I had to do a massive, massive shift. And luckily, when Eric came along, and I started to... To really, I suppose, well, first of all, I just looked at everything he loved as a kid, and I realized that actually, he still loves The Jungle Book. He loves a 101 Dalmatians. He loved every movie I've ever loved. Nothing had changed. And it, and it kind of reminded me, actually, when something's good, it's good. And if it can last a generation, isn't that your main thing? Uh, kind of aim rather than trying to be so radical one week to get the ratings up that it might damage your long-term brand or something, which I think we all were, were guilty of at some point, you know, where now I, I'm completely the opposite. I'm thinking, you know, if you get to 20 years with, with, with a show, how do you get to the next 20 years? Uh, and you don't do it through gimmicks or anything else. You do it by the talent has to get better. The editing's got to get better. Everything has to get better. You know, that's the kind of the drive I still have…

AI assessment note: “I don't think so, particularly, no. No, I don't.”

Q a bit of a weird word because it, it conjures up, you know, images of, of superficiality and things like that. But was she, I mean, did she entertain at the house? Was she sort of known as somebody who, you know, you always want to go to, you know, you always want to go to her parties like, oh yeah, Julie's having a party. Let's go to her house.

A Everyone, yeah, used to entertain. There was, you know, if it wasn't our house, it would be the neighbor's house. Pretty much every weekend, there would be a large party. Um, and obviously in the summer, uh, when the weather was good, it would be outdoors. And, you know, I always remember, uh, my next door neighbor, uh, was a guy called Jerry Blattnett and he ran, I think it was MGM studios in the UK. So we all looked, and he was a little guy, but we all kind of looked up to him as, oh God, he's the producer, you know, he's the guy. Because when we used to look over into the garden during the parties, all we ever saw were film stars. And I always thought that must be the best job in the world, being him.

AI assessment note: “Everyone, yeah, used to entertain. There was, you know, if it wasn't our house”

Q Well, how are you as a, I mean, from, from everything I've read, um, including in your biography, You really loved your parents. You had a really good relationship with them, but you were not, um, I mean, you weren't a good student, for example. You talk about this, right? Did, was there, did that create conflict at all between you and your parents?

A Well, you know, I think if I, let's say Eric, my son, had turned out like me, I would go, we have a problem, because I was, I just rebelled against any form of discipline. I just I couldn't, I couldn't deal with it. Uh, if they said, don't do that, I would always do the opposite. Uh, there was, you know, one particular school I went to, and the teachers were just brutal. I mean, to the point where, I mean, I, I went home one, one day, like I was beaten up because this teacher whacked me so hard. And, uh, eventually, you know, I told my mum, and my mum came to the school and had this massive fallout with the headmaster and this awful teacher. Um, so I think that didn't help. I, I think they knew I was kind of bright, but not academic.

AI assessment note: “I think they knew I was kind of bright, but not academic.”

Q Got it. Okay. So from everything I read, it was a struggle. It's probably is a struggle, right? To find the right mix of guys, right? To, who can do this.

A It's, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done. And with the pressure, That this is all being documented. And if this goes wrong, this is going to be really, really embarrassing. But I think, you know, and I was thinking about this before we, you know, we, we were having this conversation today, because I was thinking, you know, we're going to touch on this. And I, I do think As much as I don't like thinking about the past, I do love that hustle I used to have to do on a daily basis because it was that, well, you don't survive. I mean, you know, I wasn't left any money. I, I didn't really make any money until I was in my thirties. Uh, I had to really kind of just hustle everything and I really loved it. Um, so when I, I like to sometimes put myself back in that position where The odds are against me, and can we make it work without any guarantee? It's kind of this weird thrill I still get. I don't know why, but I do.

AI assessment note: “It's, it's one of the hardest things I've ever done.”

Q Did you naturally feel comfortable, like, in this role of going to gigs and just going up to artists and bands that didn't know you and, and just kind of introduce yourself and try to strike up a conversation with them?

A Well, it's a good question. You know, I don't think anyone even today is really trained to be an A&R person. I don't even know how people today, you know, get that job, because a lot of the A&R people I knew were genuinely tone deaf. Um, seriously. So it was all about blagging it. I just thought, you know what, I just want to have hit records. That was it. And this was just at the cusp where There was this kind of crossover period between what was happening in a lot of the gay clubs in the UK. They were kind of ahead of the curve. It was like, you want to know what's going to happen in six months time? You went to this club. The music was fantastic. The energy was incredible. So I would sit in the booth and just watch and listen and think, yeah, If I can get a record as good as one of those with an artist signed to me, I think this is a good way to start. It just made sense. Um, and I was fortunate one night I was out and I, and I met this girl and she told me that she'd be making some demos and, uh, I heard her songs and I thought, actually, she can really sing. And I felt with her, Sunita, This girl, actually, if we could find a record that we could break through those clubs, but is commercial enough to then be a record, that might be a good way of starting.

AI assessment note: “So it was all about blagging it. I just thought, you know what, I just want to have hit records.”

Q And, and so you're doing, and did you, did you, I mean, did you sign, successfully sign anybody, like, notable?

A I think I got a lot of songs recorded, so it was enough for my boss to say, I think, Simon, you're going to do well, you know, In music. I've been thinking about leaving EMI. Would you consider leaving with me? And I'd only been in that job for about, I don't know, a year. And I was so young and naive. I didn't really know what I was doing. And I was like, well, ok, but I'm quite happy. Are you sure this is the right thing to do? And he, and he said, yeah, I've got some financial backing. Cut a long story short. I said yes, and I went with him, and then I realized very quickly, we just didn't have the money we would need to be an independent music publishing company.

AI assessment note: “I think I got a lot of songs recorded, so it was enough”