The Exchanges

Q So you, you took your, your lecture, essentially, and you typed it up into, into a book that, that you called Europe Through the Back Door, and did you, did you structure the book in just a, you know, clear way? It was like country by country. Is that how you organized it?

A In the beginning, the book was two halves. It was like two books bound together. The first half was all the skills. Packing, hotels, eating, transportation, communication, you name it. And then the last half were individual chapters on my 20 favorite discoveries. These are the back doors. So, I didn't need to write a guidebook to Paris or to Ireland. I just need to share my discoveries. And, um, For a long time, I kind of almost prided myself in not having to bog down on, you know, phone numbers and prices and hours and that kind of stuff. I just wrote creative articles to turn people on to my favorite corners, the south coast of Portugal, Dingle Peninsula in Ireland, Arrow Island up in Denmark, you know, the Mosul River Valley instead of the Rhine for your castles in Germany.

AI assessment note: “In the beginning, the book was two halves. It was like two books bound together.”

Q I mean, were you, were you curious and excited about everything you saw? Were you, were, were you more, Like a typical fourteen-year-old kid where you were kind of bored with some of the museums and things like that.

A At first I didn't want to go. I was a fourteen-year-old with a bad attitude. Then I got over there, and I've always navigated, I, I navigated childhood with a pragmatic understanding that things go better if you're not fighting your parents, you know. And I just thought, okay, I'm gonna make the best of this. And then I was, uh, always into stuff. I remember I had no money at all, but I was collecting things. I would collect bottle caps, because in Europe when you have a bottle cap, it says what's The city it was bottled in. So I'd have all these, uh, exotic bottle caps, beer, or soft drinks, with where it was bottled, and I collected that. I collected matchbooks, I collected sugar cubes, uh, you know, and I, I also was a businessman. I would, uh, guy, it's, it's kind of, when I think back on it, funny, because I found the, the most incredible business for a fourteen-year-old, because I was a coin collector. Coins sold in Seattle in the sixties, foreign coins, for Three cents a piece, you know, in the, in the coin markets, if it was a German coin or a Norwegian coin. So I could buy 52 Groschen coins for a nickel and bring them home and sell them for three cents each. That is a markup, man.

AI assessment note: “At first I didn't want to go. I was a fourteen-year-old with a bad attitude.”

Q And, and, and what, you make a pilot and, and pitch the idea to, To public TV stations?

A Yeah, when you, when you make a TV show for public television, you need a station to be your presenting station, and Seattle opted out for some reason, so Oregon took it up, and, uh, Oregon Public Broadcasting, OPB, all over the country now, you know, 30 years later, people think I'm from Portland, because my show gets the little OPB jingle, and, um, they presented it to the system, and a few channels picked it up, And, uh, if it works well, there's a buzz, and other channels pick it up the next time around. But what that ended up doing was, um, kicking off a series, and we did five series with Small World, uh, and I remember it was expensive. Every dissolve was a, was a financial decision. I remember they had to go to an editing suite and just have forever dissolve.

AI assessment note: “when you make a TV show for public television, you need a station”

Q trip, and you come back to, to Edmonds, and you start college, you go to the University of Washington, and what was your, I mean, at that point, you're still, you know, young, 1819, 20, but did you have, did you start to think, um, you know, here's what I'll do with my life? Like, what did you, what did you start to think you might do with your life?

A At that point, I, I just, I think I just was very happy to be a piano teacher. I love teaching piano, um, I had a studio, um, So I was a little businessman. I had the studio next to my parents' piano store. Paid 200 dollars a month for the rent. We had a recital hall where twice a year the kids would do their recitals, and I bought a coffee machine where I could actually serve coffee in styrofoam cups to all the parents, and it was just, for me, it was just like so happy to do that, and the kids wouldn't practice in the summer, so I'm just going to go to Europe. I'll see you in the fall. Life was going to be simple and sweet like that, and, um, And then I thought, well, I should get something practical, so I got a business degree also. So I got a history degree for, because I love that, and a business degree, because I thought it would be practical. Um, but I had no, no thought about turning my, my love of travel into a business. I, but, but then, you know, things unfolded.

AI assessment note: “I think I just was very happy to be a piano teacher.”

Q So you, you would basically, would you drive the bus?

A Yeah, I drove the bus. It was just, that was a beautiful formula. When people want to get into the travel business and make some money, I say, you know, I think the best thing is just to have a forte. Just, you know, you are, uh, you know, you are Mr. Scandinavia, or you are Mr. Baja, or Miss Baja, California, and just do that specialty with eight people on a minibus. And, uh, the economy of, uh, sharing a vehicle with eight people is wonderful. The fact that you don't have to take care of a driver and a guide, but the driver can be the guide is wonderful, and, uh, that's, that was kind of my original formula there, and this worked really well at the time. I was, I would actually have a day where I would announce my, my minibus tour plans for the next year, and I would give the talk. I, I would, I would say, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna explain the tours, and then I'll take deposits for the tours on that day, and I'd have, you know, four or five Tours that I would do with the minibus. I was always the guide and the driver. And that night, all those tours would be full.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I drove the bus. It was just, that was a beautiful formula.”

Q realize, because the show is, its debuts in 1991, and it's super fun to watch, because it's so nerdy, and I love it. I love it for that reason. It's so, I mean, it's really special. Um, when did you start, when did you first realize that people were recognizing you, and going, hey, there's a, there's that guy from TV, like, do you remember that feeling? When that happened?

A Yeah, it was very, it was, um, I remember the first time I ever saw somebody with my book in Europe. I remember the first time people started recognizing me from the TV show, and then the first time people from other, the other hemisphere would know me from seeing the TV show in YouTube and other streaming ways, but, uh, yeah, over time that became more and more of a deal. I, I remember coming into a, into a, a youth hostel high in the Alps, and I just checking for the guidebook information and dropping in and And there was, uh, the guy who ran the hotel said, oh, there's a Girl Scout group in the, in the dining room, and they'd love to see you because they're here with your book. And I came in to the, I just interrupted their dinner, and they just go, oh, there's the guy we saw on TV. We saw his shows before we took our trip. And the Girl Scout leader says to the girls, girls, if it's not to your liking, and they all go, change your liking. And that's one of my slogans in my, in my guidebook. If it's not to your liking, change your liking. So they were true blue and doing, you know, honoring, you My little, little slogans without me even knowing it, and that was, you know, that's pretty fun when you work really hard to realize you're having an impact that way.

AI assessment note: “that was, you know, that's pretty fun when you work really hard”

Q influencers on, on social media travel around Europe, around the world. Um, and, and oftentimes they're not, they're not really there to see it, but basically to be seen seeing it, right? Like they post pictures of themselves, like posing in, in this or, or in that place sometimes as, as a way of getting travel perks, right? And I mean, I mean, you've seen those kinds of posts, right?

A Yeah. I mean, just last year, I was traveling around Europe, and it occurred to me, I went to like four places in a row where there was this Instagram phenomenon, this is, uh, whatever it is, and, uh, I was in Muren in Switzerland, and people were lining up to stand on a stump in Muren to get a photograph with the famous mountain behind them, and they're literally lining up to get this photograph, and then I go to the Cinque Terre in the Italian Riviera, and, uh, there's five towns, Nobody goes to Monarola, and all of a sudden, everybody's going to Monarola, and they're on the spit out in the waterfront in Monarola, and there's a big crowd on the spit in Monarola, and I ask my local friend, what is that? And he goes, that's the Instagram spot. Everybody goes there to get their picture, and they don't even know the name of the town, you know, and, uh, I'm just so thankful that I don't, you know, when I go, when I go to the Louvre, I'm not putting on my shoulder pads and getting a selfie in front of the Mona Lisa. I've got some serious art appreciation to do. So that's a different world, and those people are scrambling to make it in that world, and that's fine with me, but it has nothing to do with my work as a travel writer.

AI assessment note: “I went to like four places in a row where there was this Instagram phenomenon”

Q I'm assuming that it was clear to you, cause you had, you had established a business, right? You, you called it Europe Through the Back Door like a few years earlier, and it was like a, you, you probably filed an LLC, but I, it's not clear to me that you thought this was still going to be the way you were going to make a living. Up until 19.

A I don't know what I, I don't know if I filed anything. I'm kind of laughing at that because I was, I was so, um, klutzy then. I was just having fun teaching and selling books out of the back of my car when I had books to sell. But, you know, when I think back on it, friends and loved ones and relatives give me these ideas, and my, my gut response is, no, that's crazy. And then I think about it, and it's actually a great idea. And a good friend of my parents, Patty Price, said you should take Bus tours around. And I just thought, that sounds horrible. And then I thought, god, there's huge efficiency in sharing the rental cost of a minibus. And I'd love to, um, you know, I'd love to help organize people's trip plans, uh, at the table and the dormitory over lunch. And I'd love to take people around Europe on these minibus tours. And so I, you know, I was giving these talks, and it was very easy to, um, talk to people who were enamored with me because of my fun stories I could tell about traveling. They, you know, it was kind of Natural. They would, they'd be interested in traveling with me if I made that possible. And I did. And the, the minibus, there was no, there was no promises. The minibus tours were like, it was like a commune on wheels. It was, it was not profitable except to cover my costs so I could stay over there longer. And, um, you know, um, everybody had to almost si…

AI assessment note: “I don't know if I filed anything... I was just having fun”

Q more visible, and, and, you know, you're on the TV show, and there are presumably more people interested in buying your books, and then maybe even taking your tours, did you sit down and say, okay, this is the strategy. We're going to create a travel business, and we're going to do all these different things, or, or did, do the things that eventually happen kind of just happen haphazardly?

A No strategy at all. Um, you got, I always think, I kind of like this idea of, in Mexico, there's a volcano that just appears, you know, just a little mountain grows out of the desert, and then it grows bigger and bigger, and all of a sudden, it's a mountain. Didn't, there was not any plan there, and that's kind of the way we grew. We, we become, you know, bigger and bigger and bigger, and for me, it's, I never really wanted, I got a business degree, but I never really wanted to look in the book and say, oh, now you have a COO. Now you have a CFO. Now you have a CEO. I don't even know what that stuff is until it becomes apparent, oh, we need a guy to do this, and then they go, yeah, that's called a CFO, uh, you know, and it, we're just, we're just kind of going, oh, that's why they have that.

AI assessment note: “No strategy at all.”

Q You taught a class, or you took a class?

A No, no, I took the class, and this guy, I was gonna do this trip, And, and I, there's no good information back then. Today we have a glut of information, but back then, you know, you just didn't have much information. This guy had information. I signed up for his class, and there was like, 15 of us there dreaming about, you know, just, you know, just like, wide-eyed, he's done this trip from Istanbul to Kathmandu over Khyber Pass, you know. And, um, and we sat there, and he was just too cool for school. He just didn't prepare, he didn't care about our trip, he had the information, but he didn't give it to us, And it really, it really frustrated me. And at that moment I realized if somebody has travel experience and other people need it, it's wrong not to be well organized and, and share it in a, in a artful, careful, practical way. And I thought, you know, I could do the same thing and I could really help people. So I put together this class and it was, I just, it was sort of a lark, you know, it's just this goofy college where people Teach you how to fix your bike, or how to build a log cabin, or how to forage and eat snails, and all this kind of stuff, and, and, um, I was teaching a class called European Travel Cheap, and I remember, I'm not gonna mince words, this is European Travel Cheap, that's all it is, how we're gonna afford to go to Europe, and, um, it was a six Wednes…

AI assessment note: “No, no, I took the class”

Q What about your, um, personal life? Were you, were you married at, at that point in, in, in the 19 eighties?

A Yes. I was married. I forget. I, I remember I was, my class was Wednesday nights, and I got married on a, on a Saturday and a Sunday, of course. Uh, so I remember giving a talk one Wednesday and saying, I'm going to get married this weekend. That whole next week was dedicated to getting married, and then the next Wednesday I was back, uh, in the University of Washington giving the experimental college class. Wow. I guess that's a little indication that I was, uh, focused on my business quite a lot. I, and my wife was a very supportive and beautiful partner for that period of my life, and, uh, then I got this, uh, complexity, you know, a growing family, and kids, and also a business that was just taken off, and my heart was in two places at the same time.

AI assessment note: “Yes. I was married.”

Q so you did this first series, television series, with this production company for, I guess, five seasons, and then, um, and then a couple years later, you, you relaunched the show as Rick Steves Europe, right? Also on public television, and this time it was your, it was your show, right? And this was going to be different. This was going to be the way you wanted to do it.

A Yep. I suppose creative people have had that, you know, where they're in a band and they want to be the composer and the, and the manager and, and create the vision and, and say what album they're going to do next. And I got to the point with Small World where it just, we had different visions and we weren't enjoying the collaboration. And especially when you're making TV, if you're not having fun in the field, you know, it's not going to, it's the, the, the product is going to suffer and So, I wanted to have fun in the field, and, uh, I, and I wanted to be in, to be totally honest, I just wanted to be in complete control. I knew what I wanted to make. Life is short. I'm spending a third of my time in Europe making TV. You see, my time in Europe is divided. It's basically a third involved with the tour program, a third involved in researching the books, and a third involved in producing the TV shows. And, uh, that's a big commitment.

AI assessment note: “Yep... and to be totally honest, I just wanted to be in complete control.”

Q man in the world, and you have been pretty open about your progressive politics. You wrote a book called Travel is a Political Act in 2009. You've updated it, um, even, I think, just a couple years ago. Do you think Do you think because you have spent so much time overseas seeing other cultures and talking to other people that it, it, it's actually made you more progressive politically?

A Hmm. I love how travel opens you up to the world, and I think it does make you more progressive. I, I've always been aware that culture shock is a challenge for travelers, and, uh, just this last few months I've been thinking about how culture shock is, is a positive thing. It's the growing pains of a broadening perspective, and, uh, uh, I'm, I'm so aware of the gap between rich and poor. I'm so aware that, that My daily latte costs a day's wages for the less privileged 50% of humanity. Half of our planet is trying to live on five dollars a day. I think it's so interesting how you learn about your country a lot of times by leaving at it and leaving it and looking at it from a distance. So this is all, to me, you know, my travel teaching has morphed. We talked about it in the very beginning. I said European travel cheap. It was just budget tricks. Uh, you know, and since then it has morphed gradually, gradually, gradually over the years, and now it is getting out of your comfort zone and gaining an empathy for people who live differently and see things differently than we do.

AI assessment note: “I think it does make you more progressive.”

Q And, and normally you would say, well, you know, once Rick Steves is, is no longer part of the equation, uh, there's no business. But, but I mean, Rick Steves is like fromers or, or, or Lonely Planet, right? It's, it's you, but it's something else too. It's, it's actually, I mean, what's interesting to me about Your business is that it can survive without, without the person Rick Steves.

A Yeah, I've, you know, I've wanted to get to the point where the business could survive without me, and, uh, I think we're at the point now, and I'm really happy about that, that we've got a team where the, the company is viable without me. On the other hand, it's, it's a shame when a company is named after a person, because then you have other people that should have the The potential to be the public face of that company, but it's kind of awkward to say, you know, here's, uh, John Doe, who is, uh, speaking for Rick Steves. It, it would be nicer if the company was just called Europe through the back door, and then John Doe would not be not Rick Steves. But, uh, that's not a problem right now, because Rick Steves is still having fun being Rick Steves.

AI assessment note: “I've wanted to get to the point where the business could survive without me”

Q And essentially, you, you, when you say you gave your lecture to the paper, you were just kind of talking out loud and typing it out?

A Yep. I think I even hand wrote it or something, but it was just my lecture, I mean, because I had given that lecture, and for me, giving the, giving the talk is, is, is, uh, recreation. It's how are you gonna, um, how are you gonna design these ideas and get it across, and how are you gonna illustrate it, and, uh, you know, you're gonna talk about, uh, uh, bed and breakfasts, and how did that relate to youth hostels, and what about sleeping on the train, and, uh, finding cheap, free, free places to sleep, and, and whatever, and after each, at the beginning of each class, I had everybody write on a piece of paper their fears and apprehensions, and I would survey for a long time. I would survey the class in the first night, and what are your fears and apprehensions? And I really got good at knowing what people's fears and apprehensions were.

AI assessment note: “Yep. I think I even hand wrote it or something, but it was just my lecture”

Q And by the way, Rick, what, how, how detailed were you going into in these classes? Was it like, here's how you get to Europe, here's where you stay, here's, or, or was it, you know, yeah.

A I would sit on a, on a table facing the group in the, in the, in the classroom, and I had a slideshow. I had my slide projector, and I showed slides. And I, I remember I could, uh, it was too, after a while it got, I, I mean, I was teaching all the time. I was just a teaching maniac. I would teach all, Saturday. I would give the, that six week course in a one Saturday session because people from out of, out of, out of town wanted to take it and they couldn't come every Wednesday night. So they would drive in and, and I would, um, teach it from nine till five with an hour break for lunch. And I could keep a hundred people into a packed little hotel ballroom all day long, um, giving my talk. And, um, and it was, I got better and better at it. And I, and I experimented with the delivery, uh, time after time. How I would teach this, and how I'd get the points across. And eventually, um, my, uh, uh, my mom's sister, my aunt, said, you should write a book. And I thought, that's so stupid. And then I, uh, but then I thought, well, wait a minute, I've already written the book by giving this talk over and over and over. And, uh, I just sat down and, and gave my lecture to the paper, and there it was, the first edition of Europe Through the Back Door.

AI assessment note: “I would sit on a, on a table facing the group in the, in the, in the classroom”