The Exchanges

Q but there have been plenty of stories, I mean, Instagram is an example where, you know, the founders eventually left, um, but had a lot of autonomy for a long time. Has it, you know, when, when a big company like Unilever comes in as a parent company, in your experience, has it changed, um, A lot at Dollar Shave Club? Do you feel like it's the same exact place?

A No, it's definitely not the same exact place, but not because of the acquisition. Um, you know, we've gone through an enormous transformation at the company over the last two years. Uh, we have had to change the way that our entire technology stack is built, the way that the consumer interacts with it, the packages that we're selling people. We went from selling razors once a month to selling everything that you need a couple times a year. Um, and, and that's working out really well, but just to get to that point required Transformation in advertising, and frankly, transformation of, of personnel. I, I don't know the number off the top of my head, but something like, you know, 80% of, of our, you know, three hundred-ish employees are new, uh, within the last 18 months.

AI assessment note: “No, it's definitely not the same exact place, but not because of the acquisition.”

Q Um, and you studied history there, right? I did.

A I actually started out as a poli-sci major, but I flunked poli-sci 100 Actually, twice. I flunked the same class twice in back-to-back years, um, which goes to show you what kind of a student I was my freshman and sophomore year, um, and then couldn't do that anymore, so I became a history major because I always loved history, and I love reading about history and studying history, so I actually did fairly well at that. I had a killer internship with a, with a company called Bright House, and I also got super into my internships at CNN, so I actually did more extracurricularly, I think, in college, And I got really into those things, and that helped set me on my career afterwards.

AI assessment note: “so I became a history major because I always loved history”

Q Yeah, that's right, right, because why would you take improv classes for years?

A Yeah, I mean, listen, I would go to the Upright Citizens Brigade two, three nights a week, and just watch the most amazing comedians perform. People that have gone on to have amazing careers, people like Donald Glover, you know, I, I went to go see Donald Glover when he was doing these shows in the, in a basement in Chelsea under a grocery store, and you're watching six to 10 people on a stage Pull ideas out of thin air, and weave them together into a story that, that makes you laugh, and comedy is one of the hardest things to do, period. There's a setup, and then there's the equal sign, right? It's A plus B plus C equals ha ha ha, and that takes magic, that takes real talent, and so it's addictive, and when you get it right, and when you do it well, um, it's a high, and I also, it was such a great way to blow off steam in the evening as well, because You would have these really hard, long days at work where you're getting grinded by your boss at work, and, you know, you're trying to start this social network for travelers in the margins, and, you know, then it's like, you know, you could go to the gym, or you can go just completely blow your mind and do some improv.

AI assessment note: “it's addictive, and when you get it right... it's a high”

Q Awesome. I mean, I know you live in LA, you, a lot of, you spend a lot of time in LA, but California obviously has, has had some serious issues with wildfires. How did you get into that? Like, why did you decide to do that?

A You just, at a certain point when you live in the West, uh, you, you, you, you're going to collide with this issue in some way, and you're going to know somebody that's been affected by it, and as somebody who, I had just stepped down as CEO of, of Dollar Shave Club in January of 21, and, um, I was looking for something to sink my teeth into, and I got smoked out of this vacation, and, um, I just kind of went deep down the rabbit hole to learn about wildfire and, and wildland fire and how it, and, and, And all the policy related issues, et cetera, and decided to start Safewood. So yeah, it was, it was sort of a outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm, I'm really glad I've done it. It's connected me to some really incredible people, both on the, you know, federal government side at the U S forest side, and then other really big thinkers in the policy space.

AI assessment note: “I was looking for something to sink my teeth into, and I got smoked out”

Q So, so, was that your idea that you would stay in journalism or media? Like, was that where you started to think, you know, this is what I'm, maybe this is what I'll do.

A Yeah. Yeah, I was super passionate about it, and went to work at NBC, and then went to work at MSNBC, first as a PA and as a writer, and I, I thought that I would have a career in the media, and maybe even in journalism. Um, but I think at a certain point, the 24 hour news cycle, you work all day to build a story and a narrative, and then at five p.m., uh, right before your show would air, they would, you know, there would be some breaking news, and all your work would get thrown out, and, um, and then I also felt like, It was right around the time that I started thinking, like, I really want to be in marketing or advertising.

AI assessment note: “Yeah. Yeah, I was super passionate about it, and went to work at NBC”

Q How were you fulfilling those, those orders, and that, after the video came out? Was it like you and a few people, like, packaging them up, and?

A Yeah, we had printers, we had a couple printers hanging around the office, and, you know, we were running labels, and, you know, it was so frustrating, because we had thousands and thousands of orders, and this label printer's like, ba-doop, So, like, the only answer is, get more label printers. So, at a certain point, we had these label printers, and, you know, we're, we're filling out these rolls of labels, and then we put them in these big trash bags, and we drive them down to the warehouse where we shot the video, and that was doing our fulfillment center, and this was not an e-commerce fulfillment center. This is a place that, like, on Monday, they're filling, like, windshield washer pellets into tubes. On Tuesday, they're putting vodka bottles in crates, and on Wednesday, they're filling orders for Dollar Shave Club, and, like, Whatever, so you have to go over there, take the big bag of, of labels in a big trash bag, throw them over the fence, and hope that in the middle of the night, nobody comes by and steals the big bag of rolled labels, um, uh, which would be crazy if they did that, but, um, but that's, yeah, that was how the operation worked.

AI assessment note: “we drive them down to the warehouse where we shot the video, and that was doing our fulfillment center”

Q this is a question, um, that I ask everybody who comes on the show, and, and, and, and if you've heard the show, you've heard me ask the question, but I'm curious, from your point of view, how much of what happened to you, um, do you think is because of luck, and how much do you think is because of your hard work, and your intelligence, and your skill?

A I think that anybody that's successful in business has benefited from luck, and anybody that tells you that they haven't or don't is not being truthful. Luck plays a role in everything, and I think that you continue to get lucky throughout your career, um, and, and throughout our business. You know, we've gotten lucky in, in many ways. Some, sometimes good luck is a manifestation of hard work, Um, and sometimes luck is just luck. I like to think that a lot of other people who met Mark Levine at that party that night, you know, would not have done what I did with, with it. Um, what we have all done with it, um, because this is not a one-man show. It never has been. Um, but yeah, luck's, luck is important.

AI assessment note: “Sometimes good luck is a manifestation of hard work, Um, and sometimes luck is just luck.”

Q How is it at that very moment, because it sounds like that's what you're saying, you were thinking, this is the business I'm going to do. I'm going to drop everything. I'm going to focus on this thing. Like, what, What was it about, 250,000 razors in a warehouse in Rancho Cucamonga, That inspired you to, to think like that?

A Well, because I knew there was a problem, and I, I think that a lot of entrepreneurs will tell you that, you know, they trust their gut, and I trust my gut, and my gut told me that the problem that I had observed back in 2005, 2006, when I had that feeling of not wanting to go into the store because the razors were overpriced, and the buying experience was super frustrating, if I had that feeling, I knew there were other people like me that would have that, that, that were experiencing that same frustration, And I knew that there was an opportunity, and like, also, like a lot of entrepreneurs, um, once you become focused on an idea, and you've identified a problem that needs solving, or a thing you want to bring into the world, it's really hard to get that out of your head. Um, I believe truly that there was a problem worth solving here, and I certainly didn't think that it was going to become what it has become, uh, but I knew that there was enough there to, um, to, you know, Make a couple bucks.

AI assessment note: “Well, because I knew there was a problem, and I... trust my gut”

Q The other thing, of Of course, is that Gillette sued you for patent infringement, um, as your, you began to take away market share from Gillette, um, it's still pending, but did that lawsuit freak you out when that happened?

A Um, well, yes and no. I mean, you know, it was the first time, I think, that we had gotten sued, and you know, your first, the first time you get sued, you're like, what do you, how do you react to something like that? So, but I think at a certain point, you, people have been telling us along the way to expect that, because that's a playbook that big competitors, big incumbent competitors can do, you know, to make you look unattractive to capital, to make you look unattractive to potential acquirers. Um, and so for me, you know, like, look, you take everything very seriously as a CEO, but you also say that there was a business calculation to it also that made a lot of sense from their side. So you put it all together and, and, and rationalize it that way.

AI assessment note: “well, yes and no. I mean, you know, it was the first time”

Q I guess another way of asking the question is, is it possible? I mean, do you think it's still possible? Is it wise? Is it, is it, is it crazy to try to do that?

A So is it, is it crazy? Probably. Does that mean you shouldn't try? Definitely not. The last great consumer giant disruptor company has not been launched. They will continue to launch all the time. And so what is the signature element of their success? You know, it's, it's probably a pretty boring formula. It's a combination of, you know, great product, um, and in great distribution and great communication and And, you know, if you kind of reverse engineer Dollar Shave Clubs, uh, the, the success of that video, I, I would say that, you know, we had a great product. Um, we had unique distribution, um, at that time, it was right at the beginning of DTC is going to eat the world. And that's not what happened ultimately, but everybody believed that at the time. And then, you know, the uniqueness of the voice with which we spoke was, was real and, and it was captivating.

AI assessment note: “So is it, is it crazy? Probably. Does that mean you shouldn't try? Definitely not.”

Q Uh, which I guess, and I, I'm going to try to describe this and you can correct me. It's like an, it's like an ecotourism nonprofit where people can go and fight, like learn about how to fight wildfires on their vacations, basically. Is that right?

A Um, more or less, and it's, it's had a bit of a meandering journey, but, but we kind of started out, uh, wanting to raise awareness for the importance of fuel mitigation work and forest management work. And so we thought, um, could we create opportunities for, you know, individuals, uh, or companies, you know, looking to do kind of a, an eco retreat or some community service type thing to come out, uh, to, to our spot in Montana and work with the U S forest service to Do all the fuel, do the fuel mitigation work, um, learn how it all works, and then go back to their communities and spread the gospel. Where, where it has migrated a little bit towards is bringing, uh, you know, influential people in business and government out in, into the wild land to learn about this work to hopefully influence public policy. Um, and, and we've had some, some really great success so far.

AI assessment note: “more or less, and it's, it's had a bit of a meandering journey”

Q How is it at that very moment, because it sounds like that's what you're saying, you were thinking, this is the business I'm going to do. I'm going to drop everything. I'm going to focus on this thing. Like, what, What was it about? 250,000 razors in a warehouse in Rancho Cucamonga. That inspired you to, to think like that?

A Well, because I knew there was a problem, and I, I think that a lot of entrepreneurs will tell you that, you know, they trust their gut, and I trust my gut, and my gut told me that the problem that I had observed back in 2005, 2006, when I had that feeling of not wanting to go into the store because the razors were overpriced and the buying experience was super frustrating, if I had that feeling, I knew there were other people like me that would have that, that, that were experiencing that same frustration, And I knew that there was an opportunity, and like, also, like a lot of entrepreneurs, um, once you become focused on an idea, and you've identified a problem that needs solving, or a thing you want to bring into the world, it's really hard to get that out of your head. Um, I believe truly that there was a problem worth solving here, and I certainly didn't think that it was going to become what it has become, uh, but I knew that there was enough there to, um, to, you know, Make a couple bucks.

AI assessment note: “Well, because I knew there was a problem, and I, I think”

Q At this party, who is Mark Levine? What's that party? What happens there?

A So Mark Levine is, um, my friend's father. Uh, he's a businessman, he's had a successful career, uh, in South Africa, then came to the United States, you know, and he, he was an importer. He's like our family friend who, you know, would show up sometimes with like, you know, a truck full of soccer balls or like a truck full of bikes, and you'd be like, where are the bikes from? He'd be like, do you want a bike or not? And, and so you're like, yeah, I'll take a bike. Yeah. Um, so, Yeah, we'd been trying to get connected for a while, because he had heard that I had worked in, you know, worked in the internet, um, inside the internet. And he wanted to meet me because he had all this stuff in a warehouse that he was looking to, you know, unload.

AI assessment note: “So Mark Levine is, um, my friend's father. Uh, he's a businessman”

Q I probably would have said to you, and I have to imagine other people said to you, Michael, you're like a thirty-something dude, and you want to try to enter one of the most impenetrable markets, razors and shaving, in America. I mean, Gillette, Schick, did anybody in your family or anybody say to you, like, razors? This is like, this market is dominated by, like, two or three companies.

A Yeah, I, I don't know that anybody quite phrased it like that. Um, so yeah, I mean, you're, you know, my family, you know, but like, don't listen to your family, because for a lot of reasons, I mean, listen to your family for a lot of reasons, but don't listen to your family for some things. I mean, the way you've laid it out is exactly right. This is, you know, Gillette at the time, Um, had, you know, an effective monopoly on this particular consumer product in this category. And, you know, for a nobody to come in with, you know, his Rancho Cucamonga razors and, and, like, change the way that people think about that category, like, you know, I would never have said it that that's what I was going to try to do.

AI assessment note: “I don't know that anybody quite phrased it like that.”

Q I probably would have said to you, and I have to imagine other people said to you, Michael, you're like a thirty-something dude, and you want to try to enter one of the most impenetrable markets, razors and shaving, in America. I mean, Gillette, Schick, did anybody in your family or anybody say to you, like, razors? This is like, this market is dominated by, like, two or three companies.

A Yeah, I, I don't know that anybody quite phrased it like that. Um, so yeah, I mean, you're, you know, my family, you know, but like, don't listen to your family, because for a lot of reasons, I mean, listen to your family for a lot of reasons, but don't listen to your family for some things. I mean, the way you've laid it out is exactly right. This is, you know, Gillette at the time, Um, had, you know, an effective monopoly on this particular consumer product in this category. And, you know, for a nobody to come in with, you know, his Rancho Cucamonga razors and, and, like, change the way that people think about that category, like, you know, I would never have said it that that's what I was going to try to do.

AI assessment note: “I don't know that anybody quite phrased it like that.”

Q And so, explain why, I mean, we've talked to the guys who founded Warby Parker, and they explain why frames, Were so expensive because it was essentially a monopoly, and they said there's no reason why. Is it, was it the same with razors? Like, why, why were razors that you could buy at a, at a pharmacy so much more expensive than the ones you were selling?

A Right. Well, you know, if you think about, it's a very small community. There are not that many people in the world that make great razors. Um, and you think about the science that's involved. For such an old school sort of product that's been around for a long period of time, There's an, an extraordinary amount of science that goes into taking, you know, raw metal, then thinning it out, then creating a blade edge, then, then coating a blade edge, you know, that can actually slice hair off your face and not skin off your face. There's a lot that goes into it. You can do it. People do it. And so, but it's hard. And that's why there's not that many people that do it.

AI assessment note: “it's a very small community. There are not that many people in the world”