The Exchanges

Q You know, I'm wondering whether some of the criticism that you've had over the years, you know, even the way Whole Foods does business, has that improved Whole Foods? Have there been times where people have said, hey, you know, what Whole Foods is doing with this is wrong, and, and, and, and, or protesting, has it changed the way you guys have actually operated?

A Yeah, it has. I mean, the most famous example is back in, in 2000 and three, we were being picketed by animal rights activists that were very unhappy about this particular duck we were selling, which they consider to be a factory farm duck. But I got into a dialogue with one of the activists, a very passionate young, young woman named Lauren Ornelius. And I know after about a month or so, she sends me an email and she says, You know, Mr. Mackey, I see after our dialogue that you are a very idealistic person. However, when it comes to livestock animals, honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. You are not well informed on this subject. And, you know, I thought about it. I thought, you know, she's really right. I don't know that much about this personally. I'm just, I decided to become an expert myself. And that summer, summer of 2003, I read about a dozen books on how we raise animals in America. And I was utterly horrified. I guess I'd just been living in denial. It was a complete wake-up call for me. And by the end of the summer, I had made two resolutions. One, I was gonna go to be, I was becoming vegan. And number two, I knew Whole Foods needed to do a much better job. That the accusations that the animal rights people had made about what we were doing were fundamentally correct. We then began a process of bringing in animal activists and Whole Foods people in dia…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, it has. I mean, the most famous example is back in, in 2000”

Q Did they have any, any of their own conditions?

A Yes. One of the Craig's and Mark's conditions is we have to make this a real store. We have to sell meat, and we have to sell beer and wine, and we have to sell coffee. We can't just be completely a vegetarian idealistic store. We don't want to partner with you. And I'd already thought Craig and Mark's store was very successful, and I talked to a lot, a lot of customers cross shopped, and they all wanted us to Loosen our product standards to make it more a real grocery store. And it was kind of like, you know, if we're going to eat these foods, then we need to be able to, we should sell them. So, that was a, a compromise that was made that turned out to be the right compromise from a business, a business decision perspective.

AI assessment note: “Yes. One of the Craig's and Mark's conditions is we have to make this”

Q So, so what, what was it like? Like, what, what was it like working at that health food store?

A I loved it. I mean, the store wasn't very big. It was only a couple thousand square feet, but the retail business was really fun. I mean, first of all, I'm surrounded by food, which I'm fascinated by. With other people that I'm working with, you know, there are seven or eight of us working for the store, and they're also equally interested in food. They're people that you get to know over time in a small store with not, You know, not that many customers, and you develop relationships with people, and, and, ah, you serve them. And I just thought that was, like, super fun. I knew I could do this. This seems within my realm of competence. Uh, and then I worked there about six months, and when I, some, an idea grew in my mind, which is, this is what I want to do with my life. I want to open, I want to open my own store. I went back to the co-op and talked to my girlfriend, Renee. She was four years younger than me, so I think I was like, 23, and she was like 19, and she got super excited about it. I often wondered if Renee had said that's a stupid idea, it'll never work, how my life might be different now, but she was very excited about it, and we began to plot out opening our own store.

AI assessment note: “I loved it. I mean, the store wasn't very big.”

Q So with that money, you were able to open up the, the first Whole Foods?

A Well, the original store was called Saferway. I think Safeway, but Saferway. And we, truthfully, we were always hoping that maybe Safeway would sue us. It would be good publicity. And all those electives I had in school, none of them were business classes. No real business experience. Renee didn't have any experience. She was, the time we opened the store, she was 20, 21. And we, we opened a store in an old house, not even on Busy Road. It was just like, we just thought this was a super cool house. So we, we had a store on the first floor, a vegetarian store, and we had a vegetarian restaurant on the second floor, a cafe, and then we had an office and we lived on the, on the third floor.

AI assessment note: “Well, the original store was called Saferway.”

Q And is this also when, when you start to think about, uh, going public?

A Yeah, but venture capitalists didn't want us to go public. They wanted us to do another round of venture financing, but I was determined not to do another round of venture financing because that would have given them control of the company, and I just didn't trust the venture guys. Venture capitalists are like hitchhikers, hitchhikers with credit cards. And as long as you take them to where they want to go, they will help you pay for the gas. But if you don't take them where they want to go, they will try to hijack the car, and they will hire a new driver and throw you out on the side of the road. So I did not trust the VCs. I liked them. I didn't trust them. I did not want them to take control of the company. So I thought, we're going to go public, and then we're going to get the hitchhikers out of the car. So, it was a little early for Whole Foods to go public or so I was told later on, but we did go public back in 1992, and we raised about twenty eight million dollars.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, but venture capitalists didn't want us to go public.”

Q So, so what, what was it like? Like, what, what was it like working at that health food store?

A I loved it. I mean, the store wasn't very big. It was only a couple thousand square feet, but the retail business was really fun. I mean, first of all, I'm surrounded by food, which I'm fascinated by. With other people that I'm working with, you know, there are seven or eight of us working for the store and They're also equally interested in food. They're people that you get to know over time in a small store with not, you know, not that many customers, and you develop relationships with people, and, and, uh, you serve them, and I just thought that was, like, super fun. I knew I could do this. This seems within my realm of competency, uh, and then I worked there about six months, and when I, some, an idea grew in my mind, which is, this is what I want to do with my life. I want to open, I want to open my own store. I went back to the co-op and talked to my girlfriend, Renee. She was four years younger than me, so I think I was, like, 23, and she was, like, 19, and she got super excited about it. I often wondered if Renee had said, that's a stupid idea, it'll never work, how my life might be different now, but she was very excited about it, and we began to plot out opening our own store.

AI assessment note: “I loved it. I mean, the store wasn't very big.”

Q Did they have any, any of their own conditions?

A Yes. One of the Craig's and Mark's conditions is we have to make this a real store. We have to sell meat, and we have to sell beer and wine, and we have to sell coffee. We can't just be completely a vegetarian idealistic store. We don't want to partner with you. And I'd already thought Craig and Mark's store was very successful, and I talked to a lot, a lot of the customers cross shopped, and they all wanted us to Loosen our product standards to make it more a real grocery store. And it was kind of like, well, you know, if we're going to eat these foods, then we need to be able to, we should sell them. So that was a, a compromise that was made that turned out to be the right compromise from a business, a business decision perspective.

AI assessment note: “Yes. One of the Craig's and Mark's conditions is we have to make this”

Q You know, I'm wondering whether some of the criticism that you've had over the years, you know, even the way Whole Foods does business, has that improved Whole Foods? Have there been times where people have said, hey, you know, what Whole Foods is doing with this is wrong, and, and, and, or protesting, has it changed the way you guys have actually operated?

A Yeah, it has. I mean, the most famous example is back in, in 2000 and three, we were being picketed by animal rights activists that were very unhappy about this particular duck we were selling, which they consider to be a factory farm duck. But I got into a dialogue with one of the activists, a very passionate young, young woman named Lauren Ornelius. And I know after about a month or so, she sends me an email and she says, You know, Mr. Mackey, I see after our dialogue that you are a very idealistic person. However, when it comes to livestock animals, honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. You are not well informed on this subject. And, you know, I thought about it. I thought, you know, she's really right. I don't know that much about this personally. I'm just, I decided to become an expert myself. And that summer, summer of 2003, I read about a dozen books on how we raise animals in America. And I was utterly horrified. I guess I'd just been living in denial. It was a complete wake-up call for me. And by the end of the summer, I had made two resolutions. One, I was gonna go to be, I was becoming vegan. And number two, I knew Whole Foods needed to do a much better job, that the accusations that the animal rights people had made about what we were doing were fundamentally correct. We then began a process of bringing in animal activists, And whole foods people in di…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, it has. I mean, the most famous example is back in, in 2000”