The Exchanges

Q And sometimes after that, you ended up Uh, living in Toronto with your girlfriend at the time, and so tell me the story, like, what did you do there?

A Well, I, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and I read an amazing book by Ivan Illich, who's an educational philosopher, called Deschooling Society, and Ivan Illich's philosophy was that formal education in universities constrain the flow of knowledge more than facilitate it. Those who are affluent, who can afford it, get access to it, those who aren't Don't. And so he said, you know, what we really need to do is we just need to find bright people and let them teach other people in their homes, in their offices. And so I started the Skills Exchange of Toronto, totally modeled on a chapter of the book that I had read, never having had any business experience or never having studied business. I was, you know, 1920 years old. We basically printed up This little catalog with all these short courses, they lasted a night to four weeks, and I loved finding the teachers, and I loved writing up the course descriptions, and the thing was incredibly successful, and we had a little newspaper that we put in what was sort of similar to the Village Voice in New York. We stuck tens of thousands of these little course catalogs in this newspaper, and lo and behold, people Sent in checks and registered for courses.

AI assessment note: “And so I started the Skills Exchange of Toronto, totally modeled on a chapter”

Q Hmm. And so, I guess, like around this time, it's, it's clear you need to raise some cash, um, and, and as we heard Alan say earlier, uh, you wind up taking the company public, and that does bring in several million dollars. So, with that money, what were you now able to do at Seventh Generation?

A So, we sort of did three things. We, uh, Built up our line of branded seventh generation products. We were selling in the catalog a lot of other people's products. So if we were selling sheets and towels and t-shirts, those were not ours with our name on them. So we expanded the assortment of our branded products. So that was number one. Number two was we redesigned and relaunched the mail order catalog on Hoping to get better results than we had been getting. And number three, we started experimenting actually having my brother Peter Hollander go to natural food stores in New York City and put our products on the shelf to see if they actually sold. And we got a pretty quick feel of what was moving. And there was no question that three products dominated the assortment. Bathroom tissue, paper towels, and laundry detergent.

AI assessment note: “So, we sort of did three things. We, uh, Built up our line”

Q Jeffrey, how did you feel about that, the culture at the office, that kind of hippie culture and the bean bags and the pillows and stuff? Did you think that actually that's a kind of a good look for a A company like Seventh Generation. Did you, were you ok with it?

A I, I had a multiplicity of feelings. I mean, in, in, in some respects, I loved what Alan was doing, and I learned a tremendous amount from him about how to build a culture that was aligned with the values of the business, and that was really cool. And yet, at the same time, I took a lot of shit for the nap room from investors. It was like, you really need a nap room. Is that a good use of our capital? Uh, but I, you know, Alan was a great teacher, and I came to really appreciate the culture. He was talking before about what people don't know. I mean, one of my fondest memories is that in our staff meetings, we would actually give a prize out to the person who made the biggest mistake that week, and they would get a coupon to go out to dinner with their friend or their wife.

AI assessment note: “I had a multiplicity of feelings. I mean, in, in, in some respects, I loved”

Q a lot of that kind of, um, startup energy happening, you know, sort of between 2010, 2020, I think some of it's faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one-to-one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing, and a lot of socially focused businesses. Um, it seems like that has Faded a little bit. First of all, do you agree with that?

A I, I can't understand why it looks like that given what you read in the newspaper, but when I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people, the enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems in some regards is growing, but it's not, not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared, sort of stick their head up and say, hey, I'm doing this great stuff. There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things, and they don't talk about them, and part of it is the sort of political environment we live in, and we have many aspects of responsible business, like diversity and inclusion, that businesses have a great business case for doing, because it has a positive effect on the company, But it also comes with risks. So people continue the practice, they just don't call it diversity and inclusion, and they don't really publicize it on their website, in spite of the fact that they continue to do it. And that's a confusing landscape, but we can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have. We just can't afford that.

AI assessment note: “enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems in some regards is growing”

Q people who are saying, hey, you know, I want to do what you did at Seventh Generation, I want to start something that's going to have an impact, and that's going to be a sustainable, robust business, what advice do you give? Because it's a very different world than it was when, you know, you and Alan were, you know, hippies in, you know, in Burlington, Vermont, starting Seventh Generation.

A You have to really understand the business case for doing what you're doing. You can't just decide I'm going to do some good things and make some good products and make people happy. You really have to understand from a financial perspective why doing the right thing has economic and financial benefits for the business, makes you more competitive, and as I said before, helps you attract the best talent that performs at its highest level of capability. And there is abundant research, much of which NYU has done itself, that demonstrates that people that run businesses in a responsible, purpose-driven fashion generate better results, more profits, better growth, and as young students, they have to be very familiar with that landscape so they can make the business case to investors who want to know that that money will be used effectively and successfully.

AI assessment note: “You have to really understand the business case for doing what you're doing.”

Q a lot of that kind of, um, startup energy happening, you know, sort of between 2010, 2020, I think some of it's faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one-to-one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing, and a lot of socially focused businesses. Um, it seems like that has Faded a little bit. First of all, do you agree with that?

A I, I can't understand why it looks like that given what you read in the newspaper, but when I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people, the enthusiasm they have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems in some regards is growing, but it's not, not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared, sort of stick their head up and say, hey, I'm doing this great stuff. There is sort of this new language called green hushing, where people do sustainable things, and they don't talk about them, and part of it is the sort of political environment we live in, and we have many aspects of responsible business, like diversity and inclusion, that businesses have a great business case for doing, because it has a positive effect on the company, But it also comes with risks. So people continue the practice, they just don't call it diversity and inclusion, and they don't really publicize it on their website, in spite of the fact that they continue to do it. And that's a confusing landscape, but we can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have. We just can't afford that.

AI assessment note: “enthusiasm they have... in some regards is growing, but it's not, not being talked about”

Q from what I understand, you decide you want to write a book. You want to write a book about, I guess you want to kind of make amends for how to marry money and those kinds of lectures. You decide to write a book called How to Make the World a Better... Place, which is great. Um, how did you come to that realization that you wanted to do this?

A Well, as you said, I needed to redeem myself somehow, but it was, it was just as much an exploration of all the ways in which you could do good stuff in the world, and, uh, I remember I, I wrote the entire book on these long yellow legal pads at the New York Public Library on 42nd Street, and I would sit in that library day after day doing research and really exploring, looking at The world of socially responsible investing, looking at what was happening in the world of human rights, looking at what was happening from an environmental perspective, and the book was really a compendium of all the good things one could do on a full-time or a part-time basis to help make the world a better place.

AI assessment note: “I needed to redeem myself somehow, but it was, it was just as much an exploration”

Q Jeffrey, you remember this differently. What do you remember about Alan's decision to take a sabbatical? How did you respond to it?

A Yeah, I mean, you know, it's hard to separate what I felt at the time with my memory of what I felt. I mean, I felt abandoned. I felt angry. I felt like I was on a ship that was sinking, and my partner, who's supposed to be steering the ship with me, just stepped off and left me alone with a boat that was really sinking. I mean, I didn't know whether the thing would survive. So, and, you know, when things don't work out, Both parties have some responsibilities, so there's no question that I probably didn't behave the way I should have. I might have felt like, you know, if you leave now, don't come back, but I might not have said that.

AI assessment note: “I felt abandoned. I felt angry. I felt like I was on a ship”

Q What do you think, um, I mean, lots of people obviously listen to this show for business ideas and also for guidance. Um, Jeffrey, what do you think somebody should look for in a co-founder?

A Well, first of all, they got to make sure that they want a co-founder. It's not for everybody. As Alan has suggested, some people, uh, maybe like him and I, uh, are happier being in the leadership role alone. So, If you're gonna have a co-founder, I think you need to have a very, very transparent and clear agreement about the relationship. Not just who's doing what, but how you handle disagreements. How you handle things that, when things go wrong. It's a challenge. I mean, it's, you know, to me, in some way, being married is like having a partner, and it takes a tremendous amount of work. So, you know, I think if you're not prepared to do the work, you shouldn't get into the relationship.

AI assessment note: “need to have a very, very transparent and clear agreement about the relationship”