The Exchanges

Q You know, it's, I mean, it's amazing, like, looking back at your story, because your, your mom was a widow with four girls, and, uh, that she had to raise on her own, and she must have been A little worried when you left England for South Africa and then to the US with very little. What did she make of your, of your success?

A No, I know that she was really proud. She felt validated in the direction that she pushed us in. She passed away in 2001, but she saw our success, and the last, ah, months of my mum's life, she had Alzheimer's. I'm not sure she remembered anything about Dermalogica. She remembered me, and I sat on her bed when she was in hospital, and I was giving her a manicure. I was right back to filing her nails and painting them, and she was watching me, And she looked across at the woman who was in the chair next to her, and, ah, she said to her, with a huge look of pride, she said, ah, my daughter's a qualified manicurist, you know. And, ah, and I smiled as I was doing it, because I thought that if she doesn't remember anything about the success we've had, she's really proud that I got that training, and I'm going to be ok. And I was.

AI assessment note: “I know that she was really proud. She felt validated in the direction”

Q You know, it's, I mean, it's amazing, like, looking back at your story, because your, your mom was a widow with four girls, and, ah, that she had to raise on her own, and she must have been a little worried when you left England for South Africa, and then to the U.S. with very little. What did she make of your, of your success?

A I know that she was really proud. She felt validated in the direction that she pushed us in. She passed away in 2001, but she saw our success, and the last, uh, months of my mum's life, she had Alzheimer's. I'm not sure she remembered anything about Dermalogica. She remembered me, and I sat on her bed when she was in hospital, and I was giving her a manicure. I was right back to filing her nails and painting them, and she was watching me, And she looked across at the woman who was in the chair next to her, and, ah, she said to her, with a huge look of pride, she said, ah, my daughter's a qualified manicurist, you know. And, ah, and I smiled as I was doing it, because I thought that if she doesn't remember anything about the success we've had, she's really proud that I got that training, and I'm going to be ok. And I was.

AI assessment note: “I know that she was really proud. She felt validated in the direction that she pushed”

Q Jane, who launched with 20 plus different SKUs. Jane, what do you think?

A First of all, I love this. I think it's great. I think you have a real shot of building a brand with this. I'm on your website. I'm, I love these three women running through the field with buffalo bison in the background in their underwear. It's just fantastic. It's very high quality. We need underwear that works like this, and I think I would not expand You've got to own this underwear niche. You've got to be, when I think underwear, I've got to think parody. I think that there's all kinds of opportunities to expand within the underwear. I don't know, I do, I love Pilates. Pilates underwear, we need something when we're doing standing leg series, trust me. You've got a pregnant woman in one of your shots, but pregnancy underwear, there's specific sports, I imagine, like, I don't know, hurdles, pickleball, Which is huge. Men's, I think, could be the next big step. I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts and all the rest of it until you've got a great product going here, and you've got great attention from press. I wouldn't spread yourself too thin.

AI assessment note: “I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts... I wouldn't spread yourself too thin.”

Q And is that where you, ah, where you met your husband?

A Yeah, I met him in South Africa. He's from Cape Town. And, um, he was already in process for a green card for the United States. And while we were dating, his green card came through. And, I mean, I can't even explain how exciting it is. It is like getting the golden ticket in a Willy Wonka chocolate bar. It's, it's so hard to emigrate legally and do it properly. And he did, and off he went. And I was so excited for him. And at the same time, I had a job with an American company, and they were based in Los Angeles, and within a few months, I actually got offered a training trip to Los Angeles, and so I met him when I came on that business trip, and together we just said, we've got to do something here, this is such an amazing country, and such an amazing opportunity. I went back, gave him my notice, I'd hired an immigration attorney in LA, and four months later, I was on a flight to Los Angeles.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I met him in South Africa. He's from Cape Town.”

Q So at that time, like, you know, 83, and this is sort of the first few years of it, I mean, did you see yourself as an entrepreneur? Did you, did you have visions of making this a huge thing, or was this just something that you loved doing that you were?

A No, it wasn't. Well, first of all, I didn't use the word entrepreneur. I'm not sure I really knew, knew that word. Maybe I did. It wasn't a hot, sexy word like it is now. Um, I just thought, I'm going to lead a tribe. We're going to change this industry. And so for three years, the International Dermal Institute was our only business. But very quickly, I realized, and Raymond and I both together said, what product are they using when they go back to their salons? And when I would ask them this, they would say, they were all European products, French, German, and Italian. And I said, why are you not using American products? And they said, well, which ones? And I realized there were no American-made products in the salon industry. There were tons in the department store and in the drug store. There was nothing in the salon industry. And it was like a light bulb went off for both Raymond and myself. We both said, okay, the big opportunity is product. And Ray said to me, if you had to write down the kind of products you want to use, do you believe you could write down the briefs for a line? And I said, absolutely. And he said, write down the briefs, and let's set about making a product line.

AI assessment note: “No, it wasn't. Well, first of all, I didn't use the word entrepreneur.”

Q And, and decided to sell it last year, you sold it to Unilever. Why did you, why did you decide to do that?

A Well, you know, we'd run the company as what I sort of say was, you know, a beneficial dictatorship. We've always had a great team. We still have a great team, but the decisions ultimately came down to Raymond and myself. Product approval, advertising, everything, the brand ID. And, and, you know, we realized, much that we hate to think about it, the death rate is holding steady at a hundred percent. So, ultimately, we were going to have to make a plan of what we wanted to do with the company. We have two daughters. They're 17 and 22. And neither of them wanted to come into the business, and we didn't want them to. We told them, even kind of before they were born, we decided if we ever have children, they're not coming into Dermalogica. It's our dream, and we believe it's a burden to kind of shoulder your children with that responsibility, and so we had decided we'll hire a CEO, and we'd gone through a couple of CEOs in the eight years before we decided to sell, and we, it just wasn't working, and we realized The problem probably wasn't the CEOs, the problem was probably us, because we are the founders, you know, we have this sort of, ah, passion about the ownership, and it's very hard to run a company when the founders are in place and kind of want to have the last word. Yeah. And so we decided we should at least explore the idea of an acquisition. We'd never taken a phone cal…

AI assessment note: “ultimately, we were going to have to make a plan of what we wanted to do”

Q Was it, was it weird to live there at the time? I mean, what was it like to be there?

A It was completely different to anything I'd ever experienced. You know, I remember my first day going to work, I was taking a bus, and buses kept coming, I kept putting up my arm, and they weren't stopping, and I couldn't figure out what was going on, because on the front of the bus it said, C-point, and that's where I was going to work. And a woman at the bus stop finally said to me, you were not, they're not going to stop for you, because on the bus at the front it said, Ni Blanc, and it means non-white. And I said, what? And she said, well, you have to wait for a bus for white people. Anyway, so that was one of my first introductions. I, I'd never seen it, obviously. I'd never seen anything like that.

AI assessment note: “It was completely different to anything I'd ever experienced.”

Q And is that where you, ah, where you met your husband?

A Yeah, I met him in South Africa. He's from Cape Town. And, um, he was already in process for a green card for the United States. And while we were dating, his green card came through. And, I mean, I can't even explain how exciting it is. It is like getting the golden ticket in a Willy Wonka chocolate bar. It's, it's so hard to emigrate legally and do it properly. And he did, and off he went. And I was so excited for him. And at the same time, I had a job with an American company, and they were based in Los Angeles, and within a few months, I actually got offered a training trip to Los Angeles, and so I met him when I came on that business trip, and together we just said, we've got to do something here, this is such an amazing country, and such an amazing opportunity. I went back, gave him my notice, I'd hired an immigration attorney in LA, and four months later, I was on a flight to Los Angeles.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I met him in South Africa. He's from Cape Town.”

Q So at that time, like, you know, 83, and this is sort of the first few years of it, I mean, did you see yourself as an entrepreneur? Did you, did you have visions of making this a huge thing, or was this just something that you loved doing that you were...

A No, it wasn't. Well, first of all, I didn't use the word entrepreneur. I'm not sure I really knew, knew that word. Maybe I did. It wasn't a hot, sexy word like it is now. Um, I just thought, I'm gonna lead a tribe. We're gonna change this industry. And so for three years, the International Dermal Institute was our only business. But very quickly, I realized, and Raymond and I both together said, what product are they using when they go back to their salons? And when I would ask them this, they would say, they were all European products, French, German, and Italian. And I said, why are you not using American products? And they said, well, which ones? And I realized there were no American-made products in In the salon industry. There were tons in the department store and in the drug store. There was nothing in the salon industry. And it was like a light bulb went off for both Raymond and myself. We both said, ok, the big opportunity is product. And Ray said to me, if you had to write down the kind of products you want to use, do you believe you could write down the briefs for a line? And I said, absolutely. And he said, write down the briefs, and let's set about making a product line.

AI assessment note: “I didn't use the word entrepreneur. I just thought, I'm gonna lead a tribe.”

Q Was it, was it weird to live there at the time? I mean, what was it like to be there?

A It was completely different to anything I'd ever experienced. You know, I remember my first day going to work, I was taking a bus, and buses kept coming, I kept putting up my arm, and they weren't stopping, and I couldn't figure out what was going on, because on the front of the bus it said, C point, and that's where I was going to work. And a woman at the bus stop finally said to me, you were not, they're not going to stop for you, because on the bus at the front it said, knee blank, and it means non-white. And I said, what? And she said, well, you have to wait for a bus for white people. Anyway, so that was one of my first introductions. I, I'd never seen it, obviously. I'd never seen anything like that.

AI assessment note: “It was completely different to anything I'd ever experienced.”

Q If you were to start Dermalogica today, right, what do you think you would have to do differently to, to gain traction?

A You know, it's really interesting. I would do exactly the same as we did when we started. I would niche it with education. It's a different environment, but people still want to hear expert advice. And, you know, even, even the most entertaining ten-year-old on TikTok talking about aging skincare is not, that's entertainment. It's not that they might not have some good points, but the different thing is about the And it's, it is very different because the barrier to entry is easier. Now you can set up your own channel in your kitchen if you wanted to, and plenty of people do. However, that is not as solid a relationship as we had to build, which was literally word of mouth. You had to meet that person. You had to touch that person. You had to introduce your product to them. There was no internet. There was no cell phone.

AI assessment note: “I would do exactly the same as we did when we started. I would niche”

Q I'm surprised that, like, skincare wasn't a big thing. In, in the U.S. at the time. What, so, so what was a normal skincare regimen?

A Very limited, because it was all big hair, big shoulder pads, Dallas, it was all makeup. I mean, you could pick up magazines then, Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, fashion magazines, there were always articles on makeup, there was nothing on skincare. The dermatologists were all saying, oh, you can use anything, you can use soap and water. And, and I knew that not only did the correct products work, and you got a result on the skin, more importantly, When you receive a treatment in a salon, it's about human connection and human touch. And there's something much bigger happening in every salon than just the service you're receiving. So I was absolutely convinced there was a waiting audience for the next era in skincare.

AI assessment note: “The dermatologists were all saying, oh, you can use anything, you can use soap and water.”