The Exchanges

Q Yeah. So this is the early 19 eighties, and, and when that business collapsed, I, I guess, um, I guess you worked at a few other jobs in sales before you landed a consulting gig with the Native American tribe in Wisconsin. What, what kind of, what kind of business did they have that they needed help with?

A Well, it was my mom's tribe, the Lake Superior Band of Lacoutere, Ojibwe. They had called me up, and they said, Dave, we understand that you owned your own business in Chicago. We could really use your help. They had a cranberry marsh. They had a logging company. They had a construction company that was building houses for Indian people. They had a grocery store. They had a printing company. They had a gas station, and they had a bingo hawk. But one of the things I noticed right away was every time I was in one of these businesses, we were failing. We were losing money like water flowing out of a sieve. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, easily a half a million dollars a year we were losing. And then I realized that the problem was is that with any of the people working within these businesses, they didn't think successfully. They, they, they didn't talk about achievement.

AI assessment note: “They had a cranberry marsh. They had a logging company. They had a construction company”

Q How were you as a student, and how, how, how was school, um, difficult for you, or, or were you a pretty good student?

A I, I was not a good student. I thought I was the dumbest kid in class. You know, I, I, I can remember my dad sitting me at the kitchen table. I would have a blank piece of paper in front of me, and I would cry because I didn't know what to do. And it wasn't until years later that I found out that I had attention deficit disorder, which explains a lot. You know, it explains why I was bouncing around all the time. And, you know, back then, I don't think there was a name for attention deficit disorder other than you were a problematic kid. You know, if it wasn't for an art teacher telling me, he said, Dave, he said, I know you struggle in the rest of your classes. He said, but when I watch you, you may not be the best artist, but you see things that other people don't see. You know, I would have never heard that from an English teacher. I never would have heard that from a math teacher. And that really stuck with me all these years. I'm able to see things other people don't see. I'm able to visualize. I'm able to see where things can go.

AI assessment note: “I, I was not a good student. I thought I was the dumbest kid”

Q No, they don't. What did your dad do for a living when you were a kid?

A My dad was an electrician, and, uh, my mom was a secretary. She worked as a secretary, so I was like a lot of kids that lived in a working-class neighborhood, and we didn't have a lot, but we always had food on the table. I think growing up, though, I, I always knew that my family was different, because when all the other kids were going out for pizza and hot dogs, especially in Chicago, being a great Pizza Town and Chicago Hot Dogs. My dad would load us up into the family car, and we were headed down to the south side of Chicago for rib tips. And growing up, I knew every black-owned barbecue joint in Chicago. And I can remember as early as 19 59 eating rib tips at Lem's Barbecue on 59th and State Street.

AI assessment note: “My dad was an electrician”

Q I read that you even, you would like stand in front of a mirror and practice shaking hands to gain confidence as a salesman. Would you do that?

A Yeah, because, you know, growing up, I was really probably the shyest bashful kid in class, and here I am trying to be a salesman, and so for years in my dad's basement, I, I stood in front of a five dollar mirror that I got from Kmart, and I had a candle, and I would say, A, B, C, and, and I tried to put that candle out with my voice, and I would practice smiling in the mirror, Today, everybody thinks I'm photogenic. They think I've got a good smile. Well, I worked at that smile. In fact, I even would wink at myself, but these were the things that I did because I realized I had to change who I was. I had to go from being a shy, bashful, dumb kid, and to being somebody that could go into a room and be able to share a story, being able to tell somebody who you were.

AI assessment note: “for years in my dad's basement, I, I stood in front of a five dollar mirror”

Q But, I mean, you, I mean, you knew, like, you had recipes, because you were, you were making barbecue, like, from the time you were a kid, right?

A Yeah, I can remember, even back then, we were the first family on our block that had a charcoal grill, and so I started learning how to grill foods, and, and then I wanted to smoke things, and we, we didn't have a smoker, so I, I took a, an old trash can, I cut a hole in the bottom, I took rebar, put it across so I could put my ribs on top of that, And so, by the time I opened Famous Dave's, I actually have been working on my recipes for 20 years. Because, you know, the ingredients that you use to create the, the sauces, the seasonings, barbecue is not easy. It's hard. Because to make a good barbecue sauce, you know, it's almost like Chinese cooking. There's a lot of flavors involved in making a good barbecue sauce. It's sour. It's got a robust spiciness to it. It's sweet. And then there's different forms of sweetness to it. You, you've got your brown sugars, you have your honeys, you've got your fruit sauces. There's a lot of nuances to making great tasting barbecue sauce, and I think, especially when you're creating robust flavors, that heat is very important. A lot of people may not realize this, but every menu item at Famous Dave's is hot. My coleslaw has a bite. My beans have jalapenos in them.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I can remember, even back then, we were the first family”

Q Yeah. Um, you know, I know that while you were starting to get famous days up and running, you were also kind of struggling in your personal life. You were drinking heavily at the time, um, and you would later recognize that as alcoholism. Can you, can you tell me about that, about what was going on in your life?

A Well, I, I'm pretty open that my life has had some very dramatic transformations. I, I do think sometimes that our Native American folks struggle with, uh, alcoholism. Um, I know my, my mom's side, uh, it was in the family. I know on my dad's side, it was the family, and, but you, you know, you didn't talk about those things, and so, I wasn't really aware that was something I needed to watch out for, and, you know, over the years, it just kind of built up where, you know, I couldn't wait till Friday so I could party, and couldn't wait till Saturday so I could party after work, and, you know, what I didn't realize was that pretty soon I was partying on Sunday, and it wasn't too long after that. I was partying on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I was partying all the time, And one morning, my wife came to the bedroom. She said, Dave, you got some friends downstairs. You better go down and see them. I said, well, I didn't remember inviting anybody over. She said, well, they're here, and they say you're friends of yours. I'm all confused. I have no idea what's going on, so I go downstairs, and sure enough, there was people that I knew, and it didn't take me too long to figure out what was going on. They were doing an intervention on me, And that was a tough thing. You know, nobody wants to admit that they struggle with alcoholism. Nobody wants to admit that they need help. But here I w…

AI assessment note: “They were doing an intervention on me, And that was a tough thing.”

Q So, you step away, and the, the brand is, is not doing well at this point. There are a number of management shakeups, and I guess in 2016, you get a call, they, some, they want you back, they want you to come help them rebrand and return to their roots. What, what's the story?

A So I'm kind of out of Famous Dave's, and one day I get a call from Mike Wright, who was running the Famous Products retail line, and really Mike was a good friend, and he called me up. He said, Dave, he said, I'm in the area. Do you mind if I stop over? So Mike shows up at my house, and he said, Dave, he said, there's some things we got to talk about. He said, the company misses you. All the franchise owners miss you. Your customers, they miss you. People who love Famous Dave's are missing you. You've got to come back. And I said, well, I don't think the leadership wants me. He said, that's not true. He said, people want you, they want you involved. And I said, well, I am out of Famous Dave's. I'm not going back. And he really laid a guilt trip on me. He said, Dave, if there was ever a time, and there may never be another time, if there was ever a time that you come back, You got to come back now, because Ed Renzi's not going to be around. The company really needs you. There's new leadership. We need you back.

AI assessment note: “one day I get a call from Mike Wright... You've got to come back.”

Q Dave, as a kid, did your mom and dad instill strong Indian values in you? Did you, did you have a strong Indian identity as a kid?

A You know, growing up, ah, in a Native American family, we were cognizant that, ah, we were America's first people. My dad was very proud of his Choctaw Nation. My mom was proud to be from the La Couture Reservation, and for us, that got carried over in that we ate Indian foods. My dad was very insistent that he had his foods from the South. My mom, uh, when she was growing up, she did a lot of fishing, and she harvested wild rice, and so, uh, throughout the years, my dad would always, what I almost call, make pilgrimages down to the south, so he could get his banaha, which is a corn type of bread, you know, almost like a tamale wrapped up in corn husks, and then my mom would always take us fishing up north, and we would Harvest wild rice and, ah, but more importantly, to raise money for the family, my parents would have a Indian fry bread stand, and my dad would grill it and smoke up venison. My mom would make Indian fry bread and also wild rice soup, but we would sell venison fry bread sandwiches along with bowls of wild rice soup. I think attending Indian powwows with my mom Where we would have this Indian fry bread stand really taught me a lot about cooking, cooking outdoors, but also the appreciation for foods that are harvested naturally. Being able to harvest wild rice, uh, fishing, and all of those are experiences that I think throughout the years have always carried ove…

AI assessment note: “we were cognizant that, ah, we were America's first people.”

Q You, so clearly high school was not, school was not, did not come easy for you and was challenging for you. I mean, I guess when you were 18, you kind of had your first experience with entrepreneurship, something about selling fuel additives or some, what was that? Tell me about that.

A So I was right out of high school, and that year I had gotten a call from a friend who said, Dave, do you have a suit? I said, of course I got a suit. He said, put your suit on, I'm picking you up. So I put my suit on, I have no clue what's happening. We drive to a beautiful hotel near O'Hare Airport, and he still wouldn't tell me what's going on, and then we, we go on to the lower level, we go into this beautiful room, and there's a lot of people in there. And he said, you are about to witness one of the most incredible things you'll ever see. And then all of a sudden, the most dynamic person comes out and starts telling all the people in this room this incredible story, how it doesn't matter where they've been, what they've been through, or what they think of themselves, they can be successful, and this person was none other than Zig Ziglar.

AI assessment note: “So I was right out of high school, and that year I had gotten a call”

Q you decided to go and get more education. You decide to do a master's degree in the mid eighties. And by the way, just because we didn't talk about this much, you actually went to college back in the seventies. You went to Roosevelt University in Chicago, but you never finished. Um, But still, you went and pursued a master's degree in public administration at Harvard. How did that happen?

A Well, kind of what happened for years, I mean years, I would enroll every fall religiously, I would enroll in school, and I always dropped out. I mean, I think if you went back and looked at Roosevelt University's records, you'd laugh because you'd see enrolled, dropped out, enrolled, dropped out. I just could never make it. I think what made the difference for me at Harvard was I was able to take the courses that I wanted to take, and I took courses that I understood, because once you get into any master's program in Harvard or any graduate program, you can basically go to any school there and, and take a course. So having worked for a tribe, I really flourished in a course that had to do with community development. And so I was able to design a course that really made sense to me, and I was passionate about it, and I did well. I, I, I mean, in fact, I did really well. So by then, I'm starting to understand that maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought.

AI assessment note: “I think what made the difference for me at Harvard was I was able to”

Q You know, losing the business for a while, and the brand, and, and of course now you're back involved with it, but I mean, when you kind of look back on, on the different decisions you made, would you have done things differently, or do you think that you kind of had to make the mistakes you made in order to, in order to learn how to do things right?

A You know, Guy, I struggle, I think, every day, sometimes thinking that I wish I could do things differently, but you know, the reality is, I really have overcome a lot of adversities in my life. I have done things in my life that I wish I hadn't done. I should have been dead three times, I've been broke three times, but every time, I've always come back stronger. You know, I often tell people that life is not always on top of the mountain. It's the valleys and it's the struggles down there that you, you have to come back from where you learn things. I think that's how you grow. And so if you're not out there on the edge, making things happen, how do you know what's possible? But one of the things I go back to is that the food of famous days, my original recipes are still Holding the test of time. And as much as we shoot ourselves in the foot, as much as we've made our mistakes in growing, is that people have always resonated with my food. And so, yes, we've had our tough times at Famous Dave's, but, but look at what we've also accomplished. Our barbecue products are in big box retailers like Target, Sam's Club, Costco, We are all over America. It could not have happened if things were easy. So, you know, I think my story of my struggles and overcoming my ADHD, overcoming my alcoholism, overcoming the tough times in my life is no different than the story of Famous Dave's.

AI assessment note: “It's the valleys and it's the struggles down there that you... learn things.”

Q help them with their bingo operation. Um, and this is like early days. I mean, sort of Indian casinos and, and Indian gaming was still in kind of its nascent phase at that point. Um, So tell me what you, what you did, I mean, you get there and they were, they had like bingo parlors there that, and that was a, how they were making some of their money?

A Right. And I didn't know a thing about bingo, but again, you know, one of my strengths is seeing things that other people don't see. So I'd watch this bingo game, and I would see generally ladies and some guys, older guys, they come to bingo, you know, spend a few dollars and have a good time. And I got to thinking, you know, some of these gals really spend a lot of money playing bingo. So I asked this other guy who was kind of helping me, I said, Fred, I said, what do you think they spend here sometimes? He said, you know, they may spend anywhere from 20 dollars to 50 dollars. I said, really? Well, this place can hold 400 people.

AI assessment note: “So I'd watch this bingo game, and I would see generally ladies and some guys”

Q an idea for a barbecue restaurant, and I know you had been, obviously, a barbecue fan, and, you know, I know your dad was really into barbecue and would take you to places in the South Side of Chicago, but were you always kind of experimenting over the years with, like, building fires and Smoking meat and grilling meat like people knew you as the guy who made great barbecue?

A Well, I can remember, it was still in grade school, but I had come home, and my dad was home, and I can remember opening up the porch door, and I was just overwhelmed by this aroma, and he had been to the south side of Chicago, he had gone to one of his favorite barbecue joints, and I see my dad pulling this rack of ribs out of his lunch bucket, That was wrapped in newspapers. This was the real deal. Real wood. Real flames. Real fire. And I tasted that rib. And even though I've been eating barbecue all these years, it was that day, that time, that rib. I said, I'm gonna learn how to make barbecue.

AI assessment note: “it was that day, that time, that rib. I said, I'm gonna learn”

Q So were you starting to feel pretty confident about the business?

A Well, you know, part of my story is that I'm Native American, just started out in business. My parents don't have money. I don't have money. My business is growing, and I can't get a bank loan. I must have pounded the Streets of Chicago. I went to bank after bank and always got turned down. You got to have assets. You got to have collateral. And I said, well, I'm starting out. I really don't. By the way, what, what's an asset? I mean, I would have stacks of orders, and I would go into a bank, and I wasn't able to get anywhere. But something else Mr. Ashner shared with me. One day, he said, you know, Dave, if you really want to get ahead, You've got to join the local chamber of commerce. So I dressed up, and I went to a chamber of commerce meeting, and here, every mover and shaker in the community that was in business was there, and they always had a speaker, and so I liked that. I, I, I joined, you know, my local chamber of commerce, and I was there religiously. In fact, I started helping set up And one day I was at a Chamber of Commerce meeting, and a, one of the presidents of the bank, uh, grabs me after the meeting. His name was Gerhard Umloff. He was the president of the Bank of Chicago on Wilson Avenue. He said, Anderson, Jim Ashner speaks highly of you. He said, I'm having a promotion at my bank this Saturday. How would you like to set up in our lobby? I'm going to have s…

AI assessment note: “Well, you know, part of my story is that I'm Native American”

Q What, what was the, I mean, what was it that you were, that you were doing that was, I mean, obviously your food was good, but you gotta put the word out. How, how are people finding out about it? Was it just word of mouth?

A You know, it was like word of mouth on steroids. I, you know, I have no idea, but people were telling friends, and friends telling friends, you gotta try the barbecue. But, you know, I, I think that's what speaks to Famous Dave's, is that I went through all of the, the things it took to make great barbecue. I slow smoked our ribs until they were tender. I flame charred them so we were able to caramelize the sauce on them. We, uh, but more than anything, guy, It's America's food. Barbecue is how America celebrates. You know, if you, if you want to have a good time, you tell your friends, come on over, we'll have a backyard barbecue.

AI assessment note: “it was like word of mouth on steroids”