The Exchanges

Q Right. So, so you're working at this restaurant in Switzerland. You were getting a lot of attention. Um, I mean, clearly you're like this sort of hot young chef, and you got poached. You got recruited by a, what, the manager of a, of a restaurant in San Francisco at, uh, at the Canton Place Hotel, like, reached out to convince you to come and work in the U.S.?

A Yeah, he was, he sort of twisted my arm, um, because the place I was at, actually in the winter, it would snow so much that people actually couldn't drive up there, so it was closed for two months. And in those two months, he offered me to fly to San Francisco and visit him. And, uh, I arrived and he was there at the airport, him personally, the GM of the hotel. I remember driving from the airport to downtown San Francisco and, uh, everything felt so foreign, like everything, the, the way the buildings were built, the way the climate was, the smells, the, it just felt like such a foreign place. And then he's like, we're going to go up to Napa Valley. I want you to meet Alice Waters, and we're going to eat at the French Laundry, and we're going to go to the farmer's market in the Ferry Building. And for me, it didn't have any meaning. I didn't know about anything, but I was excited to go on this journey. And, you know, I was just so blown away. I mean, the bounty and the beauty of California is breathtaking. And it felt that, uh, in California, there was much more freedom in gastronomy and in having influences of different cultures, and, uh, it just felt creative, and, and it just felt like the place was really alive.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, he was, he sort of twisted my arm, um, because the place”

Q Wow. Can you give me another example of, of that? Of another dish you made that fulfilled those four requirements?

A Um, okay, for example, we made this slow-cooked halibut with different types of radishes, and, uh, it sort of kind of looks like a Rothko painting, actually. It's this beautiful halibut, and it has this veil, this daikon sheet veil of pickled daikon, And underneath are sort of all kinds of different colored radishes, uh, and it comes with this, uh, orange blossom, uh, sauce. And, uh, it's delicious. It's beautiful. It's creative with the way the radish is cut. And, uh, it is intentional. It makes sense. It's rooted in In classic cooking. And so I knew that if these four things are present in future dishes, then now we have created a language. So that was really a crucial moment after 25 years of cooking.

AI assessment note: “for example, we made this slow-cooked halibut with different types of radishes”

Q And I read that you also got into cycling as a kid. I mean, you became, like, a really serious, uh, competitive cyclist. I think, like, mountain bike racer, is that right?

A Yeah, that's right. So, after running cross-country, I eventually, I discovered, uh, The bike, and I would, well, first, I would just go and, uh, take my bike, and I would, some days, I would get up at four a.m., and I would ride the bike around, like, into the French part of Switzerland, like, and then back, and I would come back home at, like, seven at night, so I was, like, gone for, like, hours and hours and hours, and so the sport actually It was almost, uh, an escape from home. Uh, you know, I started racing local races, and I was, you know, winning local races, and, uh, I went from the road to mountain biking. It became more and more serious, and when I was 14 years old, I had the opportunity, uh, to join a team and actually to really pursue it as a professional career and, and sort of leave school behind.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, that's right. So, after running cross-country, I eventually, I discovered, uh, The bike”

Q of four stars. It was pretty great. In this review, the writer, her name is, uh, Moira Hodgson, called you a star, uh, But in the review, she said, the dining room needed, and there's a quote, a bit of Miles Davis. I mean, it's a good review, three and a half out of four stars. I'm imagining you're happy, but a bit of Miles Davis. What did that mean?

A I mean, first of all, the review was way too generous, because I don't think we were at that level at that point. But, um, yes, we were happy with the review, and we were pretty perplexed about more Miles Davis. We didn't exactly know what she meant. But we were intrigued by it. And, uh, we start to read about miles and we made a list of 11 words that we saw most commonly used to describe miles. And, uh, some of the words were cool, endless reinvention, forward, moving, light, innovative, and so forth. And we look at the list of words and we're like, wow, This is exactly what we needed. In particular, cool was a great word because fine dining restaurants at that time, you know, didn't really feel that cool. They felt a little stuffy, and, uh, Miles became the creative sort of inspiration for the restaurant, and there are pictures of Miles in the restaurant today, and there's the lemon words, and, uh, Even today, we always think about, you know, these 11 words when we make big decisions.

AI assessment note: “we made a list of 11 words that we saw most commonly used”

Q I want to ask you about the food at 11 Madison Park. There are Pinterest pages, like, devoted to your plates and photos all over the internet, and if you look at Any plate that you serve, it looks like a piece of modern art. Did you start to look at, to think about your plates as, as art, as artwork?

A No. You know, I, I thank you for talking so nicely about the food, but, um, you know, art has definitely guided my creative process. My dream was to cook with very few ingredients, but say a lot. And, you know, in the beginning it was much more complicated. There were seven different things, 10 different techniques on one plate. And you know, it was always kind of a cover up. It's easier to add things, but if you only have two things on the plate, then everything has to be perfect. And I think only four years ago, for the first time I created a dish, it was a celery root braised in a pig's bladder and on the plate There's the celery root, and there is a white circle of celery root puree, and it's sort of just these two white circles. And for the first time in my life, I felt like that I achieved it.

AI assessment note: “No. You know, I, I thank you for talking so nicely about the food”

Q and just to sustain the, the pace of running, especially a fine dining restaurant, um, I'm sure you've been, you've sort of seen these conversations happening, you know, on the margins, or even, even, actually it's on center stage, around the future of fine dining. Like, is, is that model, right? Is that model sustainable? Is it going to be how people eat in 10 or 15 years, you know?

A To me, chefs are incredibly important As we're seeing our food system change, our supply change, this cannot be in the hands of politics. This has to be in the hands of chefs and farmers and the people actually on the ground. Fine dining will always be, will always exist. Because it's, it's, it's the highest form of, of cooking. It's like saying there won't be any ballet anymore, or any classical music, or, I mean, this is part of the culture. I think it's important that it continues to exist and that we continue to celebrate it. Um, And, and I believe very much, I think the way this is always kind of swung in a pendulum where we're very focused on casual dining, and then eventually we become more focused on fine dining, and maybe now we're in a place of, in the more casual, but, but it will swing back. It, it is important. It's also where a lot of the education happens. Like, the amount of people who have come through EMP, or through the French laundry, or to Single Threat, or through any of these great restaurants, it is tremendous. And these people are working in casual restaurants, but they've gotten the training from these fine dining restaurants.

AI assessment note: “Fine dining will always be, will always exist. Because it's, it's, it's the highest form”

Q You basically have transformed a Michelin three-star restaurant, the world's greatest restaurant, into essentially an emergency kitchen. I think you're making like almost 3000 meals a day right now?

A Yeah, so we're making 3000 meals a day here at 11 Madison, and by this Monday we activated a second kitchen of our fast casual restaurant, and we're Doing 2000 additional meals, so we're producing 5000 meals a day right now. So that's where we partnered with Rethink Food, and they are bringing it to, you know, senior homes, hospital, like the people working in the front lines. I mean, you know, all the soup kitchens closed because of, they rely on volunteers, and a lot of volunteers are concerned about their health, and obviously, so There are a lot of people out there who, who need food and need a meal, and for me, what's been so incredible, I ask myself, four years ago, when our restaurant was named the best in the world, I was chasing that goal for so long, for 10 years, and I understood intellectually that that was, um, sort of a carrot to motivate everyone involved, and that was a very simple goal. One, It was very easy to talk about, and very easy to give direction, and then the day that happened, I remembered the next day that carrot was gone, and when you spent 10 years chasing that carrot, the day that carrot isn't there anymore, even if you understand that it was a carrot, you feel very disoriented. At that time, I was 40 years old, I knew I had a long career ahead of me, But what is the goal now? What are we, what is this new carrot? You know, giving back was definit…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, so we're making 3000 meals a day here at 11 Madison”

Q in the world in 2017. But on March 21st, as most of New York started to shut down, Daniel also shut down 11 Madison Park. So with the help of his staff, Daniel turned 11 Madison Park into a commissary kitchen. Daniel joined me from the restaurant where he's been preparing 5000 free meals a day for the people of New York City. How are you doing, by the way?

A You know, it's obviously difficult circumstances, but, um, in a way, I've fallen in love with food all over again, and, you know, I, I left school when I was 14 years old, and started cooking early, and, and, you know, I, I've, I've learned languages through food, I traveled the world through food, I've met amazing people through food, I mean, every, everything, food has always guided me through All the good times, the bad times, and food has always given me all the answers, and, um, and it's amazing that in this crisis where I had to let go, you know, furloughed 300 people, my closest people, people I've worked with for many, many years, and, and, ah, just in this difficult time, again, somehow food, ah, was there, and, and just to see the magic of food, and, And the power of food is just really, I, I feel blessed that I get to work with it every day.

AI assessment note: “it's obviously difficult circumstances, but, um, in a way, I've fallen in love with food”

Q easier. So, for example, when I need to put Quick dinner together. I'll just get some chicken and roast it, or I'll, I'll get a steak and grill it for, you know, four or five minutes a side, and that's dinner. Is there some, is there truth to that idea that actually, when you eliminate meat and animal products from your repertoire, it's actually much harder and more time consuming?

A I think I've always felt this way that to really see the creativity of a chef is by watching them work with vegetables. If you have a carrot and you want to make that into a meal, it's not so clear what direction you're going to go. It definitely requires more thought, more preparation, more organization, and then more time in the kitchen. And, uh, Thyme is almost a new ingredient, but of course it's about deliciousness in the end. I believe that if the meal is delicious, we don't need to worry about it. I think people will buy into it, but I think if we really want to push the envelope, this is the place where we have to do it.

AI assessment note: “It definitely requires more thought, more preparation, more organization, and then more time”

Q That was tough on you and the team, but, um, were you surprised at some of the backlash, some of the, you know, some of the backlash from people who were genuinely angry? At you, and at this decision?

A Well, in the early days, the experience inside the wall of the restaurant didn't match sort of the incoming criticism, and I think that to us was confusing, and also we felt so Empowered and satisfied by the experience and by the learning that we just, uh, continued. And then slowly things started to turn around. I remember sort of early on the cattle rancher from Texas, and, uh, He sent me this long letter, and the letter was sort of like, he decided for his 40th birthday to have dinner at 11 Madison Park, a fully plant-based restaurant, as a cattle rancher. And he said his wife was confused about that decision. Um, but then he said as the meal goes on, and he's eating all different types of asparagus, the morels, and The spring onions, and he's realizing that he is having one of the best meals of his life, if not the best meal of his life, and so that conversation really interests me, because now we're really having a conversation, so I think all this was, was, was very motivating for me, Because, um, I do believe a restaurant has the power to make an impact in the world, and this is definitely something that continues to be on North Star.

AI assessment note: “the experience inside the wall of the restaurant didn't match sort of the incoming criticism”

Q is you, you have to You're a leader, right? You have to exercise, like, leadership skills, and so this is a change. I mean, there are people who are on the team, some of whom came and joined you because of this, because you went fully plant-based. So, it's gonna be hard for some people. How are you, how are you gonna manage that, you know, that sort of friction?

A I think, you know, my team is, is everything to me, and a lot of people have been with me for a long time. Um, I think the people who've been with me for a long time, they've gone through many different changes with me, and we all understand that we're always going to continue to evolve and listen and, and adapt. Um, So in that sense, everyone has lived this experience, and everyone is sort of like itching for an evolution from here. Um, there are people who have joined our restaurant because we are going down this path, and, uh, but they're also all in the hospitality business, and that's really why they are working in a restaurant. And I think They hear these feedbacks of people say, like, oh, I wish my brother could be here as well, or I wish my husband would understand what this is, but he's not willing to do it. And so we're all living this experience, and, and I think people will understand. We are not rewerving back to the restaurant we were. We're a changed restaurant forever on. And, uh, The thing about EMP is change is in its DNA. There is a quote by an artist, William de Kooning, that really resonates with me, and he said, I have to change to stay the same.

AI assessment note: “we all understand that we're always going to continue to evolve and listen and, and adapt.”

Q Chef Hum, let's, let's sort of start with, with the days after the shutdown. I know, like many of us, you were in a daze, but within a couple weeks, I think within a couple days, you kind of made a huge pivot, um, and you turned your kitchen into an emergency kitchen. How did you do that? How did that happen?

A It really happened overnight. We had a full restaurant on that last Sunday. And then we didn't really realize, we, we knew we would shut down for a few weeks, but then we realized over the next few days that this is going to last longer, that we had to let people go, people, and probably 30% of our staff is from somewhere else, so people went back to their home countries. In a business where I think restaurants The most valuable thing is, is to, are the people, the team. The value of them having worked together for a long time, that's what makes the best restaurant in the world. Like, I was always saying, like, you know, we can have the most beautiful dining room, and the most beautiful China, and the best food, but it's all about the team. So, I always said, if we want to be the best restaurant in the world, I want someone to walk into these doors, And within two or three minutes, they know that they're in the best restaurant in the world before they have received food or really service. But just the energy of the team, you can just feel it. You know, you're in a special place. And so to see that crumbling in front of my eyes within days, it's heartbreaking and, and I haven't even processed it. So we're all in shock. You know, everyone is in shock. And, uh, there are ideas of, you know, are we turning this into a to-go business of sorts? And I explored that a little bit. Um, b…

AI assessment note: “are we turning this into a to-go business of sorts? And I explored that”