The Exchanges

Q Well Bruce, when do you first remember hearing the word grunge?

A When it popped into my brain. I wrote some ad copy for the first Green River record, and I wrote, ultra loose grunge that destroyed the morals of a generation. And I put grunge in all caps. In my mind, it just meant music that had a grittiness to it, as opposed to the polish of a lot of music on major labels. Uh, certainly the vibe, and I think the reason the word stuck is because the whole vibe of what was going on in Seattle was super resourceful and lo-fi. Guys walking around in jeans with holes in it, t-shirts with holes in it, pawn shop guitars, uh, distorted amplifiers. It just, it just worked in my mind.

AI assessment note: “When it popped into my brain. I wrote some ad copy for the first Green River”

Q And Bruce, what do you remember about this? Jonathan was like, hey, I've got some cash and you've got a label and, um, what do you think? And how do you remember the story?

A Well, it made sense because I did not have the funding, and also John was a music guy, and this decision was made in spring of 87, and when the Green River Record Release Party happened in June of 87, by that time we had the Soundgarden single pressed, so when we mailed out the Green River EP to radio stations and press and so forth. We included the Soundgarden single, which was kind of a teaser for their upcoming EP that had to have made an impact because we're, what we're essentially saying is, this is a scene. This is Seattle. And Green River and Soundgarden both got really good college airplay. So that was really when things took off, was kind of like In a way, June of 87, we did the record release party, and we mailed both of those records out.

AI assessment note: “Well, it made sense because I did not have the funding”

Q I'm trying to imagine, so, so the zine that you printed, was it like on black and white paper? Was it like photocopied? Uh, how did you get it printed?

A It was, uh, went to an offset printer. My first issue was 500 copies. And I wanted color, and the only way I figured I could do that was to buy a box of crayons and invite all my friends over, and they went in and hand-colored the cover and several of the pages, but I had them distributed by a distributor called Systematic that was based in San Francisco, but I will tell you I took a huge risk in that after I printed 500 zines up, I put them all in a box, I wrapped the box up, Very artfully. It was almost like an art piece, and I shipped them to Systematic, and I said, please distribute my fanzines. Now, they could have just dumped them in the trash, or distributed them and never paid me, but they did get them out there, and, uh, they, I sold all the copies, and they sent me a check, and then I reinvested in my, my next issue.

AI assessment note: “It was, uh, went to an offset printer.”

Q thinking, you know what, Sub Pop, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to make a music label. This is, this is actually what I'm going to, because it sounds like up until this point, it was kind of amorphous. It was a magazine, but it was a cassette. It wasn't a music label. Were you still thinking of it as a kind of a magazine on cassette?

A No. When I did the cassettes, it was a magazine on cassette. When I started doing the records, I thought, okay, this is the direction I want to go, go in. However, at that time, it was really, uh, a step-by-step situation where it was essentially a hobby. Okay. And when I met John and we started talking, the vision of kind of running a real label where you would actually have an office As opposed to a hobby that was run out of an apartment, that's when that happened, and that's when kind of like phase two of the Sub Pop project really kicked in is when John and I joined forces and actually opened, ah, the office doors there.

AI assessment note: “No. When I did the cassettes, it was a magazine on cassette.”

Q talking about it so openly and candidly, and it's so, so important, I think, that for people listening to, to hear this, right? Because partnerships are complicated, but man, to get to this point, there must have been some intense reconciliation or maybe therapy or what, how, what happened? How did, Did you reach out to him and say, hey, you want to have lunch? Like, what, what, what happened?

A Well, it, it kind of unfolded over a, over a period of time, but I think what really shifted things for me were attending these phenomenal anniversary parties, which I don't know if you've heard about these, but every five years, Sub Pop will throw a big free show, and I remember in 2000, Eight. Is that the correct year? I think that was the 20th. Yep. 20 year anniversary. That was it. And I just reconnected with musicians and staff members, and a few years ago, there was the 30th anniversary in West Seattle, and I have to say, it was just one of the most wonderful days of my life, and John and I spent a bit of time just hanging out and chatting, and it was, uh, you know, it just Life evolves, and in the case of Sub Pop, uh, just keeps getting better.

AI assessment note: “what really shifted things for me were attending these phenomenal anniversary parties”

Q changed rock history, and I'm sure this is painful even to recall and recount this story, but I do want to ask you about this. Um, when you found out, Bruce, that Nirvana was shopping around, looking for a label to sign them, um, did you feel hurt? Did you feel, um, betrayed? Did you feel like they were selling out? What do you, what, how do you remember feeling?

A Well, that summer, the summer of 1990, John had recommended that I go visit Kurt down in Olympia, and that he had heard rumors that there may be some major label activity. So I went down there, and I gifted him two of my, uh, favorite records. Daniel Johnston, Hi, How Are You?, and a record by a group called The Shags called Philosophy of the World. And both of these artists were just, they were outsider artists, and my point was, we're sub-pop. We believe in the quirky outsider. That's where our values are, and if you go to a major, the culture is going to be totally different, so I, I really want you to take that into consideration, but I don't think I really made an influence. It was a couple months after that, I had heard that they had signed with Geffen, and And I was experiencing some cognitive dissonance, because I, I literally couldn't believe that was happening.

AI assessment note: “I was experiencing some cognitive dissonance, because I, I literally couldn't believe that was happening”

Q it seemed like that was possible. Like, today, opening a record store at a place like Seattle would be hard, right? Um, I mean, you'd need a lot of money, and you'd have to sign a multi-year lease, and there'd be all this, I mean, it would be almost insurmountable for most people, but, I, I guess starting a record store in Seattle in, in like, 1984 wasn't that challenging?

A We, the, the key was finding a small space with cheap rent, and it never would have survived as a record store, but we had the idea of selling skateboards, and kids would come in to buy their skateboards, they'd hear this punk rock soundtrack in the back, and we wound up selling a lot of records, but the skateboards kept us alive. I ultimately wasn't a skateboard person, and The store was not generating that much income, so I did wind up going to work at this company, Yesco, that John had worked at as well, which ironically, ultimately got bought out by Muzak, so I do have business cards that say, that say Bruce Pavitt, Muzak, and it's currently on eBay for 10,000 dollars, and I'm hoping somebody buys it.

AI assessment note: “the key was finding a small space with cheap rent”