The Exchanges

Q I guess that around age 15 or so, you were, around that time, decided to change your diet and, and get into exercise. You decide to become a vegetarian. Tell me about what was going on. Were you conscious of your weight? What prompted you to make that decision?

A Yeah, I mean, look, I think that, um, you know, there were obviously a lot of, of really intense negative emotions that I was experiencing, and simultaneously, obviously, I was also overweight. Um, you know, the drugs of choice shifted for, um, you know, my, the stepfather figure, so he went from being very angry and explosive to very subdued, Um, and it was really during that time where there's that shift in tone in the house where a lot of kind of fighting for my survival shifted to more like self-destructive tendencies, right? And, and, and a lot of anxiety, you know, at 12, I had severe insomnia and would, wouldn't sleep well for like five days in a row, right? So, And then I was eating my feelings. I think my mom didn't have the tools to help at all, and so she would just buy me bags of cookies. So that was like, that was like, twelve-year-old me was just like, going to Safeway, eating a bag of cookies in a day, and the whole thing was just terrible. Now, in terms of the pivot point, it was really interesting, because it's like a life, it's like a lifelong memory. You know, I was home, I'm on the couch, I'm eating peanut butter with sugar in it, my sister walks in the front door, And she's like, are you just eating a bowl of peanut butter? And I'm like, yeah, with sugar in it. She's like, that is, what are you, like, it was just, she was just like, it was just one of those…

AI assessment note: “Now, in terms of the pivot point, it was really interesting”

Q I mean, it's, it's the, I think that that was the whole goal of the book, to inspire people to do that, and of course, you know, Gary and Kit would go on to build an empire, really, with that brand, um, and, and at the time, what else were you doing?

A I was working at a local health food store's produce department, which was my hack at that time for getting all the fruits and vegetables I wanted without, you know, because I wasn't making a lot of cash, but I wanted to eat really, really well, and so I work in a produce department, and then that problem solved, um, and then I had started, you know, basically developed an interest, and look, this I think is Part of the siren song of the beverage industry, because obviously so many people go into the beverage industry, and so few are successful, but I felt drawn towards beverage, but I realized that I had no idea where to start, um, and I had a friend who had at that time a boyfriend, um, his name was Adam Goodman, uh, and, um, she was like, hey, my boyfriend's starting a kombucha company, And I, I was familiar with kombucha. I didn't know much about how it was made. And she's like, he's, you know, he just started. He really needs some help if you want to chat to him. And so of course I did. And then I started working with Adam, um, in, in kombucha.

AI assessment note: “I was working at a local health food store's produce department”

Q But if it, if it just tastes great and it's a great alternative, you're not, Thinking, oh man, I wish I had skinny pop. You're thinking, this is amazing, and it's even, you know, that to me is where you have the opportunity, and not necessarily in educating people about gi, right? Does that, Ben, would you agree with that?

A I mean, so I, I think at a broad strokes level, that's right. I still would ensure that you find a great avenue to tell the deeper, richer story. So it's, that's the, you know, people do like a good bootstrap entrepreneur story. Uh, I do think there's interesting dynamics in terms of Guy's historical relevance to, you know, a culture and a, and a medical discipline. And I also think that, look, fat is a major transporter of flavor, right? I mean, you've also got the culinary arguments. I think For your broad, for your broad consumer base, I think it's really, it's, I think what Guy just articulated is bang on. It's, you know, does this taste really fantastic, especially at a premium price point, then it's bullet points right on the front of the pack around comparative nutrient compositions and how your product is superior, and then figure out the other avenues for the stories that are, that's deeper, but that's for your evangelist Consumer who they're an important part of your community, but it can go a little deeper in so that it's, uh, it's less front and center and you get faster absorption rate from your emergent consumers.

AI assessment note: “I think at a broad strokes level, that's right.”

Q um, and he becomes, you, you decide that he's gonna become the CEO, and you start to I'm assuming, I think, start to pound the pavement to raise some cash so you can, you can package and market this product. OB probiotic soda. Um, and you guys, indeed, you raised about two million dollars. Had the groundwork already been laid, or was it hard to earn, to raise that money?

A Oh, it was very hard. It was very hard. It's just like, you have the meeting, and you, it's unclear whether they're gonna move, and then they have, you have, you have, You just have the, you get strung along often, um, and eventually the first chunk of funding, I think we raised about 900 K in our first, on our first go, and it was just this assorted network, um, that we had built up enough rapport with, but yeah, we just, we built up enough groundswell, and actually it was really lucky, because I think we'd been working for a little over a year with no salary at that point, um, Um, and for David, that was like a very unusual experience. For me, it was somewhat normal, but for him, it was really unusual. And, uh, I think he was about at the level where he's like, I only have a couple more months of this, and then I'm gonna have to go find a real job. So we were, we were pretty much at the end of the pier for David in terms of how much longer he could go without some, some cash capital inflow. Um, but we kind of jerry-rigged enough partnerships together that gave folks faith. And got enough people around the table writing checks at the same time that we pulled it in.

AI assessment note: “Oh, it was very hard. It was very hard.”

Q Because it, it doesn't like what you've got to refrigerate it or you've got a, it doesn't last long or what it's shelf life is limited. Like what are the, some of the limitations?

A Well, one of the, so I ended up working with a, uh, genius microbiologist and organic chemist in this process, and one of the ways that he described, um, uh, fermentation, especially fermentation that's this complex, is it's more like animal husbandry than anything else. Um, you know, you basically have these different microorganisms, and they've gotta eat correctly, and they've gotta rest correctly, And they've got to stay in the right balance. Um, and if they get sick, it could be devastating. So, you know, for a lot of brands that have scaled fermentation, um, even in yogurt and stuff like that, like they'll inoculate their culture banks against viruses, for example, that could come in and just wipe out the culture bank. It's scaling complex fermentation, um, is, is, is a very labor intensive and complex endeavor.

AI assessment note: “scaling complex fermentation, um, is, is, is a very labor intensive and complex endeavor.”

Q Yeah. Ben, I'm curious, and you may not have an answer to this right away, but what's like a, a widely accepted piece of business advice that you, that you've gotten over the years that, that actually is completely wrong, or, or maybe in your case is wrong?

A You know, I think that oftentimes, and this is, look, I, I think that people who are hardwired to be entrepreneurs will buck this kind of anyway, but I think, you know, anytime I hear the quote, something's market, you know, it's like a, and everyone kind of goes, oh, this is kind of what you need to learn how to accept, and I'm kind of like, that, the second you tell me that something is market is the second I know that we have to do better than that. So whether it's like terms that you're looking at, or, you know, either with investors, or with, I don't know, some distribution partners, or just anything where you're, you're, you're compromising your standards, you compromise your integrity, or you're compromising quality, and somehow that's considered a part of the Faustian bargain that you just need to wrap your head around, you know, I always thoroughly reject that.

AI assessment note: “anytime I hear the quote, something's market... you need to learn how to accept”

Q And from what I gathered, I mean, he had a lot of experience in beverage, right? I mean, like, he had just left a pretty big job at Diageo, at the beverage company, right?

A Yeah, you know, we talked on the phone, he's, he's from north, uh, northern UK, um, and, you know, that tends to be a fairly emotionally monotone group of folks, like Liverpool area, and so the first, I remember the first time I talked to him on the phone, I was like, this guy is not interested in working with me, uh, but then I met with him two weeks later in a cafe in Palo Alto, and we really actually hit it off, and, you know, what's also very funny is that he had a job lined up, He had, like, a safe job lined up that was down the street from where his wife was working, and they had this, uh, this, like, picturesque fantasy of, we're gonna be in San Francisco, we're gonna work these great safe jobs, we're gonna see each other on our lunch breaks, and then Wow. He came home from the lunch meeting with me, and his wife took one look at his face, and she was like, ah, you're gonna go do this thing with this guy, aren't you? And I think, and he looked at her, and he was just like, Yeah, I think I probably am. I totally, you know, and I actually did ultimately make him the CEO of that venture. Um, and one of the reasons why we landed there was again, going back to now we're starting to, to reach out to investors and raise capital. And look, I just, I, I kind of wanted permissibility to be, um, Like myself, and I thought that the kind of more straight man that David tends to be, a…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, you know, we talked on the phone, he's, he's from north”

Q start, at least in the sort of the consumer consciousness is beginning around this time. Kombucha, people are drinking and making it. And around this time is around 2008, you leave Kombucha Botanica, which would eventually, that brand would sunset anyway. And you decide to try your hand at creating your own probiotic beverage. So tell me what you started to think about. Were you going to make a Kombucha?

A Yeah, so, you know, I left, I left Kombucha Botanica, and there's, you know, a couple kind of interesting years in the middle where I started up a series of co-ops. I, um, did a bunch of freelance product development for people, because I, I wanted to sharpen my skills, so I would practice supplements, I practice skin creams, I practice all sorts of different things, and was getting paid for it. I also, I Developed rudimentary web design skills, SEO skills. So I had this kind of rotating set of skills that I was using to fund my existence. And I started to really reflect more on what is my mission. And I felt like I had evolved out of a difficult childhood to be more than good enough at taking care of myself and being healthy. And, and a lot of this for me comes down to You know, how do you create a higher quality world? I think it's really difficult to feel truly free and alive as a human being if you are struggling with your health. So I wanted to create products that at scale could start to offer that higher quality of health to more people in the country.

AI assessment note: “I wanted to create products that at scale could start to offer that higher quality”

Q been out. But still, like, I imagine you didn't have a huge marketing and advertising budget at that point. I don't think you did. How did that, I mean, it turned out that year was very good for you, but how did people discover the product when they weren't going and spending a lot of, you know, people were just popping in and out of grocery stores quickly that year?

A Well, and you're never, you're doing no demoing, right? So that was a, a really fascinating experience because obviously at the beginning of the year, uh, when, you know, shut down, the shutdowns occurred, uh, Everybody was rightfully losing their minds. Um, the prevailing logic at that point in time would have been, this is an impulse purchase that people pick up when they're grabbing their sandwich. It turned out that for those customers that had discovered us and, and basically were falling in love with the brand, they were already considering it in an essential shop for the week. So people weren't just going in and grabbing a can. They were going in and grabbing enough cans for the whole week because they were already making it a But that was, that was for me, this real epiphany moment of like, oh my god, this is a, something is happening here that's at a whole different level than I could have expected it would be.

AI assessment note: “for those customers that had discovered us and, and basically were falling in love”

Q But were you going to say, oh, and this also has a bunch of fiber, and it's good for your gut? Like, what were you prepared to say that was, you know, that wouldn't put you in trouble?

A Yeah. Look, I, one of the things that I love about the territory is more of a understood inevitability now, but at the time, even just the concept and the communication of a healthy soda was at that time an intrinsic contradiction. Like we felt like we had insider data that showed people want this. Um, we also knew that it was like a, that contradiction creates mental stickiness because you look at it and you go like healthy soda. I don't really, Is, yes, no, I don't know. Like, and then, ok, cute packaging though, I'll try it. Oh my god, it tastes great. Oh, I look at the, then I look at the nutrition facts panel, then I look at the ingredients. So, I had faith that if it tasted right, and the, and the pack was right, that just the concept of the healthy soda would create enough kind of mental noise for people that they'd want to try it, um, and I was right.

AI assessment note: “just the concept of the healthy soda would create enough kind of mental noise”